1967 What do to with my engine

chagood · Dec 6, 2004

So I have a 1967 coupe that I got with a 4 speed transmission and a 351C engine. 2 barrel carb and intake. Machine shop says $1,650 to get my engine rebuilt. Should I do this and stick with the 351 2 barrel or go with a new 302 4 barrel for $1,400 from Checker. I am new at this and don't know what to do.

67GTA-FB429 · Dec 6, 2004

Stay with the 351. Hands down. Don't even blink when you write the check. But before you rebuild, you might want to look into options that are available to really build some power into that 351. Also, you will easily spend more than $250 to get the 302 to the 351 power level. IMO.

D.Hearne · Dec 7, 2004

Ditto, keep the 351C . What heads are on it? There should be either a 2 or 4 cast into one corner of the head next to the valve cover. This means they're either 2 or 4 bbl heads. Both are good heads, but the 4 bbl ones had larger ports and valves.

Darkhorse845 · Dec 7, 2004

Yes keep the 351! Welcome to the boards!

TBP · Dec 7, 2004

I agree. Keep the 351, upgrade to a 4 barrel carb and intake.

jesserose17 · Dec 7, 2004

Yup, I agree with everyone - keep the 351C and like s-code says, upgrade to 4 barrel intake & carb. You won't regret it.

65fastback2+2 · Dec 7, 2004

just remember that to upgrade a 351C past stock it is really expensive because they are one of the more rare motors. Whereas you can do a supercharged 331 stroker roller 5.0 for less money/per power. 351C's arent know to be the best breathing either even though they do have large valve heads. They arent know to make very much power below 3000 rpm

D.Hearne · Dec 7, 2004

65fastback2+2 said:
just remember that to upgrade a 351C past stock it is really expensive because they are one of the more rare motors. Whereas you can do a supercharged 331 stroker roller 5.0 for less money/per power. 351C's arent know to be the best breathing either even though they do have large valve heads. They arent know to make very much power below 3000 rpm

Where have you been hiding? It's no more expensive to build a Cleveland than any other motor. Only work that may be more is valve job related stuff, due to the canted angles involved. Other parts aren't any more expensive than Windsor stuff ( pistons, cams, rings, bearings etc.) And as for their not breathing, that's not true and their not making power below 3 grand is also. Just need less cam with a Cleveland compared to other heads, that's the mistake the guys make when building one, and where they make the assumption that it won't make power below 3 grand. As for a supercharged stroker 331, that'll run you 5 grand at least, you can build a similar power Cleveland for less, just have to do a little shopping.

Edbert · Dec 8, 2004

Assuming the 351C block has not been overbored stick with it, no question. The clevelands were a superior design than the windsors, the 351C can be made into a pretty radical mill with the right parts. The 2V heads are better for mild applications, the 4V heads are better for more radical cams/intakes. If you have the 2V heads get a high-rise dual plane manifold, if you have 4V heads consider a single plane. The valves and runner-volume are just too much for a mild or even a moderate cam on the 4V heads.

The $1,400 302 you have quoted in your post is not "new", it is rebuilt just like the $1,600 351C would be. The 351 will crush the 302 as far as performance (considering a stock rebuild), and will not cost much more to beef up. There are fewer choices for parts for the C than a W but actual cost deltas are negligible. Just have your machinist double check the bores to make sure they are not already punched to the maximum.

67GTA-FB429 · Dec 8, 2004

65fastback2+2 said:
just remember that to upgrade a 351C past stock it is really expensive because they are one of the more rare motors. Whereas you can do a supercharged 331 stroker roller 5.0 for less money/per power. 351C's arent know to be the best breathing either even though they do have large valve heads. They arent know to make very much power below 3000 rpm

Here we are once again....the suggestion to heavily modify a small block to get an equal amount of power from something bigger...

and to add the blower you are adding more moving parts which means more breakdowns (potential).

Like I said before....stay with the 351.

chagood · Dec 8, 2004

The decision ended up being out of my hands anyway. Machine shop called yesterday and told me they found a hairline crack in the block and that a rebuild was not an option. Also found out that it had been machined before and the boreing (sp?) was already almost too far. But thank you all for your advice! I really appreciate it.

65fastback2+2 · Dec 8, 2004

D.Hearne said:
Where have you been hiding? It's no more expensive to build a Cleveland than any other motor. Only work that may be more is valve job related stuff, due to the canted angles involved. Other parts aren't any more expensive than Windsor stuff ( pistons, cams, rings, bearings etc.) And as for their not breathing, that's not true and their not making power below 3 grand is also. Just need less cam with a Cleveland compared to other heads, that's the mistake the guys make when building one, and where they make the assumption that it won't make power below 3 grand. As for a supercharged stroker 331, that'll run you 5 grand at least, you can build a similar power Cleveland for less, just have to do a little shopping.

my buddy's dad has a Tremec T-5 351C car with 3.55 gears, and my buddy has a stock 302 c4 with 2.83's and he said his car can burn the 351C car till about 55 when the 351C starts getting up in its powerband.

and as far as price. Im just thinking from getting parts cheap and doing it yourself, lol. ive never actually built a 5.0 with having someone to do it and all...thats prolly why im off

Edbert · Dec 8, 2004

Well, sounds like the Cleveland is dead after all, I sorta suspected as much, they are pretty old and have surely been rebuilt once maybe twice in their lifetimes. Still great motors if you can find a good block. Now you have another question to answer. Do you do the 302/5.0 or go 351W/5.8?

The 351W with aluminum intake and heads weighs a little less than a stock 289 and has MUCH more power potential. The 351W can be stroked to a 427 if you wanna get crazy, its VERY strong (has HUGE main journals, even bigger than an FE big-block), and is a torque monster. Simply a great platform. You can build it to stock specs and trash the 302s output in stock form then go with a performance build a few years from now.

Since you'll be buying another block and the parts you have (351C) wont interchange with either the 302 or the 351W you should at least see what the price difference for the long-block is.

nosaj122081 · Dec 8, 2004

65fastback2+2 said:
my buddy's dad has a Tremec T-5 351C car with 3.55 gears, and my buddy has a stock 302 c4 with 2.83's and he said his car can burn the 351C car till about 55 when the 351C starts getting up in its powerband.

and as far as price. Im just thinking from getting parts cheap and doing it yourself, lol. ive never actually built a 5.0 with having someone to do it and all...thats prolly why im off

WOW! A Tremec AND a T5?! A 10 speed monster ... Just joshin'... But your buddy's dad obviously couldn't put a 351C combination together to save his life, even a stock 2bbl 351 would obliterate a stockish 302. A built one and the 302 might as well say HONDA on the valve covers.

Most Cleveland guys build their own motors I've found. Moreso than the later model 5.0s. When I say build, I mean actually BUILD from a pile of parts to a running motor though, not bolting stuff on.

chagood · Dec 8, 2004

Yeah... Now I really do not know what to do. the 351 was just a really tight fit in the 67. I live in vegas so heat concerns me. I am looking for a car that is reliable with some umph off the line. Top end speed not as important. 302, 289, 351, 390??? Just don't know. And $$ is something I want to keep an eye on. Suggestions?

67GTA-FB429 · Dec 8, 2004

chagood said:
Yeah... Now I really do not know what to do. the 351 was just a really tight fit in the 67. I live in vegas so heat concerns me. I am looking for a car that is reliable with some umph off the line. Top end speed not as important. 302, 289, 351, 390??? Just don't know. And $$ is something I want to keep an eye on. Suggestions?

HA HA HA

A 351 is not a tight fit. Try a 429 or a 427 (385 or FE series engine). That is a tight fit.

Look for a deal on a 351W...lots of versatility there.

65fastback2+2 · Dec 8, 2004

nosaj122081 said:
WOW! A Tremec AND a T5?! A 10 speed monster ... Just joshin'... But your buddy's dad obviously couldn't put a 351C combination together to save his life, even a stock 2bbl 351 would obliterate a stockish 302. A built one and the 302 might as well say HONDA on the valve covers.

Most Cleveland guys build their own motors I've found. Moreso than the later model 5.0s. When I say build, I mean actually BUILD from a pile of parts to a running motor though, not bolting stuff on.

you mean the 351C that was dynoed at like 400lb/ft tq and 350hp isnt a well-put together combination??? hmmmm

65fastback2+2 · Dec 8, 2004

67GTA-FB429 said:
HA HA HA

A 351 is not a tight fit. Try a 429 or a 427 (385 or FE series engine). That is a tight fit.

Look for a deal on a 351W...lots of versatility there.

ya, the 351 is just like a hair wider than a 289/302/5.0

Edbert · Dec 9, 2004

chagood said:
Yeah... Now I really do not know what to do. the 351 was just a really tight fit in the 67. I live in vegas so heat concerns me. I am looking for a car that is reliable with some umph off the line. Top end speed not as important. 302, 289, 351, 390??? Just don't know. And $$ is something I want to keep an eye on. Suggestions?

Personal opinion:
Stay away from the FE (390/428) unless you already have one. Cost is high to acquire, parts are relatively limited. I've owned two FE equipped cars, they are great motors, but Ford stopped making them in 1970, so they are slowly drying up.

Ditto on the 351C, unless you already have the parts, look elsewhere. The 400M is not good for car-performance applications, leave it in the trucks and 4X4s where you find them.

You can make unholy amounts of power, and parts are readilly available for the 385 series motors (429/460) but they ARE tight fits in your Mustang, and I'm just not a big-block kind of guy.

That leaves the Windsors (302/351W), these are the most popular, common, and are heavilly supported by the aftermarket manufacturers. The 302 is a great little motor, but if you stroke it to its limit it is a 347, the 351 starts with more than that and can go to 427 before you see the limit. Since you need to buy a block anyhow, I say go with the 351, thats what I did in my '67. Just find out how much more the block will cost, the only thing that costs more is the intake, and thats just about $10-20 more.

Of course if you want to have even more decisions, you could always go modular. But the 4.6SOHC/DOHC or the 5.4 will need chassis mods to fit.

D.Hearne · Dec 9, 2004

Edbert said:
Personal opinion:
I've owned two FE equipped cars, they are great motors, but Ford stopped making them in 1970, so they are slowly drying up.

You're off by at least 8 years my freind. I pulled an FE/FT motor from a 78 F600 this year. Regular FE's were last used in pickups in 76. Last year for FE's in cars was 70. Same blocks , cranks, rods, heads were used in all 68-76 FE's.

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