CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,440
12,373
234
61
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Why does "rational thought" happen after I spend a whole bunch of time (and money) trying to make some wild ass folly work?

Think about this now:

If you have an engine that is set up to breathe naturally aspirated.....It makes sense that you do everything you can to try and get each full combustion process for each of the cylinders as efficient as possible. You open the exhaust, you free up the restrictions, you open the valves farther, and keep them open longer, you allow more air into the engine through its carburetor or throttle bodies, you squeeze the incoming air charge harder.

Or....in your quest to allow more air into the engine,....You put a throttle body over each intake port. You give each hole the ability to suck in as much air as is volumetrically possible. You'd be better off by isolating each TB with it's own filter, the reasoning being "Why have 6 2" holes that are relegated to drawing in as much air as each of them possibly can, only to restrict them by putting on some sort of hat, or airbox and force them to get that air via one....3" opening?"

But you have a turbocharger...It forces air into the engine..You have to have a way to direct that compressed air into the (6) 2" openings...and contain it. You have to come up with some sort of box.........That you put over the (6) 2" openings......and force them all to get their air through (1) 3" opening...

What exactly IS the reason for having these individual throttle bodies again?

Other than cosmetics,....It makes zero sense that I continue with these ITB's if my plan includes a turbocharger. A common plenum intake, w/ 6 fully open 2" tubes offer less restriction than the 6 throttle bodies do with their respective throttle blades hanging out in the middle of each of the 6 holes...
The common plenum offers a stronger vacuum reference to the brake booster,..the common plenum shows a more consistent MAP signal to the MAP sensor....
The common plenum is a simpler, solution to a complex situation:

If there is a single 3" hole feeding (6) 2' ports, eliminating any additional restriction can only IMPROVE the overall performance of my combination.

The ITB's will be on the floor by Sunday.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 90sickfox
  • Sponsors(?)


droopie85gt

Hookers and Beer for life!
Dec 26, 2016
853
628
123
Cordova, TN
You should make individual intake tubes that feed each TB, like a header, sorta.

Blend them together like an exhaust collector at the turbo.

Then paint them green.

THAT would be badass.

Every now and then, there is someone that comes along and speaks truth! Today it's @Davedacarpainter

If you build it, minds will be blown.

If Mike builds it whilst drinking whiskey, I'll drive 4hours down there and film it for posterity!
 

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,440
12,373
234
61
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
You should make individual intake tubes that feed each TB, like a header, sorta.

Blend them together like an exhaust collector at the turbo.

Then paint them green.

THAT would be badass.
Except for the green, that woulda been the plan for the stud spider ( cept my stud spider would only have 6 legs)
None of that matters...the rational side of my brain has taken over...the ITBs are gonna be wall art.
 

xecute

Active Member
Air speed must be individually as low as possiable without stalling. ITBs allow that. You can do whatever you like. Air speed into each port is best kept to about 17 feet per second, with high no orriface drag factors. Fuel standoff has to be controlled..the spit back has to be free to move backwards and forwards. None of it can be done with single throttke bodies. Its like comparing a 8 bbl ITB with a big vac sec 4bbl. It might feel faster with a nice big vac secondary shove, but single throttle bodies hurt volumetric efficiency. Steves data logs show it.

Its all about what you want, CMA. The science is well understood.

Just not here.
 

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,440
12,373
234
61
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
What once was....is no more.

I had to cut off the welded on elbow..it turned the wrong way. I had to cut out a chunk at the way back radius....it interfered with the Cobra brake booster ...but I'm walking down the path of no return now...the ITBs will never make a cameo appearance.....they were "something I've always wanted", now they're something that I don't need anymore.
 

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?
15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
6,804
6,455
234
S.I.NY
As I’m looking this (and it looks real nice) I’m thinking...... is there anyone out there that will make custom gaskets? Give them the measurements, they give you some gaskets...... no more goop! Just kind of thinking out loud here.
Cometic
 

HotFox

10 Year Member
Jan 5, 2009
843
459
104
39
SE Michigan
The plenum intake looks much better and I would argue any efficiency seen with the ITB's was more to do with a better sealed ring/piston set up then any kind of manifold design advantage.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: xecute

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,440
12,373
234
61
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
And again, as with all things, nothing is easy with me it seems...one change that occurred during the ITB's was the Cobra brake booster. Now the old intake has to wiggle and sneak by the brake lines on the MC, and " parrallel park" between the water temp sensor that sticks out in front.
The old 70mm? throttle body has to be "clocked" up at like a 45* angle to get past the hard line upper radiator hose. That will require that I do away with the recently powder coated charge tube in exchange for this new thing I gotta make. Where that gigantor BOV is gonna go in between all of that is a YTD...
And lastly I have to come up with a new throttle cable again...I cut up the old one trying to make it work with the ITB setup, and the current lokar cable will be way too short.

I have Car Munchausens disease still....I keep the car "sick" so I have something to prove to myself I'm needed...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: General karthief

xecute

Active Member
It's not Car Munchausens disease if your are changing things around to suit you goals. Like I said on the phone on that lovely 18 minute call, its street machining. Your color co-ordination, that's clearly yours. And I like it.

It would surely be a terrible world if everything was the same, CMA. Make it work, dude.

Steve, both you and I have the same background. Except my computer work was when I did Pavement Design input for one 450 mile State Highway Road and City Road networks from 1993 to 2017.

You feed the bullets to the engineers, others do the shooting. We used a Pavement Analysis prgram, so thats my experience with a computer model that governs the do's and don'ts.Those models are based on emprical data.You feed the bullets, and your hear the thunk when you get the target. Depending on the target, that depends on what noise you hear back if you are in range when you hit it.

For ITB's, you've seen how it responds to pulse width modulation, and how VE changes, you've got an idea of how the VE's are spiked at very low air speed. This is due to pulse tuning, where fuel standoff allows the engine to take multiple bites from the 'slug" of atomised gasoline in the intake tract. Essentially a forward moving AC current. Pulse tuning doesn't happen at high air speeds. When you coallesque all the runners into one, the individual colors don't do the same job. As the turbo kicks in the net effect is disolved, but ITB's still work from little single cylinder side valve lawn mowers to four valve per cylinder alloy block Lotus Esprit Turbos.

Its Huskadoo

170px-H%C3%BCsker_D%C3%BC_logo.svg.png


and Pink Floyd all over again.

08724_101928_pinkfloyalbumsleeve13L06060.jpg


The individual components bleed into one, but if the individuality is removed, you don't get the production.

This all is the Italian Dell'Orto and Weber ITB method verses the Ak Miller/Bill Gay method. Ak had done 12 throttles per 8 cylinder induction systems, and a raft of Autolite experimentals. The Boss 302 twin Dominator 4500 was ITB. In the end, for Ak Miller, and most likely Bill Gay, it was big throttle bodies, single CFi and turbo's and propane that got latched on to. And Ak used as much danged compression as he could without blowing the crud out of his turbocharged Cleveland cast iron 250, 300, 351C or Dearborn FE 390 engines.

Who cares how you do it, thats up to the individual. You either
Wake up and smell the coffee
Or just say no to individuality

For me,

You gotta keep em separated.

But you can also twin throttle body it, which is my suggestion.

AE Brico,

AE-BRICO_EFI_1968_1971.jpg


AE-BRICO_EFI_1968_1971_006.jpg


AE-BRICO_EFI_1968_1971_007.jpg


TWR Rover 3500 with twin throttle bodies.

WALKINSHAW_rover_vitesse_3500.jpg


Walkinshaw Commodore.

WALKINSHAW_COMMODORE_%20TURBO.jpg


Whatever you do, the MS3X will pull every horsepower kickin and screeming out of its "x-orst".

One thing. Put an upstream throttle blade in front of the turbo to ensure it doesn't Todd Wilkes itself

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r_9a0Z8XSs
 
Last edited:

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
26,959
2,582
224
73
Dublin GA
And again, as with all things, nothing is easy with me it seems...one change that occurred during the ITB's was the Cobra brake booster. Now the old intake has to wiggle and sneak by the brake lines on the MC, and " parrallel park" between the water temp sensor that sticks out in front.
The old 70mm? throttle body has to be "clocked" up at like a 45* angle to get past the hard line upper radiator hose. That will require that I do away with the recently powder coated charge tube in exchange for this new thing I gotta make. Where that gigantor BOV is gonna go in between all of that is a YTD...
And lastly I have to come up with a new throttle cable again...I cut up the old one trying to make it work with the ITB setup, and the current lokar cable will be way too short.

I have Car Munchausens disease still....I keep the car "sick" so I have something to prove to myself I'm needed...
I bet you are glad that you didn't sell or give away the old intake manifold...
 

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,440
12,373
234
61
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Not sure what Todd Wilkes itself means, but Pink Floyd for the win! That's good enough for me!
It's okay,...I don't think any of the references have to do one bit with the current situation on our planet.......but......on SETI Alpha 9 where Dean lives...that sht means business.

Maybe,..if you drop a single hit of micro dot, thhen you'll get the pink Floyd prism reference....one incoming air stream split into multiple outputs...( the now ibsolete air box/ITB reference)..otherwise if you stay "right side up".......
Use this emoticon to illustrate your understanding of the current Comments coming from the man who lives where the Lord of the rings was filmed.:confused:
 
Last edited:

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,440
12,373
234
61
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
The plenum intake looks much better and I would argue any efficiency seen with the ITB's was more to do with a better sealed ring/piston set up then any kind of manifold design advantage.
I can't say that I agree with you on what looks better between the two...I really liked the ITB setup purely from an aesthetic perspective...But the pain in my ass factor ultimately won out, after coming to terms with the fact that six holes, are six holes.
Whether there's a blade in the middle or not, as long as the six holes are all getting their air through the one at the end of the box, I don't need anything more complex than necessary.
 
  • Clever
Reactions: xecute

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
26,959
2,582
224
73
Dublin GA
I can't say that I agree with you on what looks better between the two...I really liked the ITB setup purely from an aesthetic perspective...But the pain in my ass factor ultimately won out, after coming to terms with the fact that six holes, are six holes.
Whether there's a blade in the middle or not, as long as the six holes are all getting their air through the one at the end of the box, I don't need anything more complex than necessary.
Wisdom from the world of Mechanical Engineering:
1.) The more complex a design is, the more likely it is to have problems that are difficult to isolate and fix.
2.) If it moves, it will break at the most inconvenient time...

Your old turbo intake manifold goes a long way towards eliminating problems 1 & 2...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: General karthief