2V vs. 4V Cleveland Build Question

Buckhunter125@h · Jan 5, 2009

I had a 351C in a 70 Torino GT ,headers ,780 vac secondary holley. 4 speed.......... I did a fair amount of "grudge" racing at the nearest strip back in the day .......................... I NEVER lost a race to a 350 chev, 383 dodge , 440 dodge ,340 dodge ,455 pontiacs ,390 ford ............. I did lose a few to some big blocks 396 ,426 ,429CJ,428CJ etc,etc......................... anyway the point is ............ the 4v heads must not have been all that bad !!!!!!! .................... LOL

Oh yeah ............ BTW ................. I BEAT more big blocks than I lost to .................. I would nearly always beat em out of the hole ................ when I shifted into 4th sometimes the big block would catch up .............. SOMETIMES ...... 8^)

brianj5600 · Jan 5, 2009

Clevelands ports are a poor design. I would be a fool to say they can't make good power, but they do have some flaws. The floor on both ports are dead space. Even in it's day the ports were not efficient. They made up for it in excessive size. An efficient port will fill a cylinder better than an inefficient port even if they have the same flow bench numbers. It is all about cross section.

Arron Johnson · Jan 5, 2009

I guess I'll just shut up then. The 2 or 3 cars you guys have owned that you THINK we so "all that" obviously puts my 30 years of dyno experience, race track experience and the thousands of cars and engines I have worked on & built over those decades to shame, even though (if you guys actually took the time to look in some of my galleries on my web site) you'll see a couple of nasty (500+HP pump gas) Cleveland powered cars on there. Oh and by the way, they DO have dual plane intakes. But et me tell you something, the reason dual plane intakles MAKE a 4v Cleveland work so well is the little RESTRICTOR ports where the plenum goes into the runners. They are HALF the size than the ports on the heads which acts as a venturi. You guys probably wouldn't know that because you have probably never ported numerous dual plane intake Cleveland intake manifolds before, but I have. If you really need an education on that, go find an Edelbrock manifold and actually LOOK at one and then know WHY they did that.... This ain't my first rodeo pilgrims.

So I guess the next time we're out at the vintage races (The Wine Countyry Classics or The Monterey Historic races) with all of the Shelby's, Cobra Jet Torino's, A/C Cobras, Smokey's Camaro's & Chevelle's and limited edition B production & Trans Am race cars where NONE of the Cleveland powered cars EVER come in 1st, 2nd or 3rd, I'll remember what you guys said about Clevelands being SO much more powerful than the littler engine / smaller headed cars who DO place 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Gee, I guess no one at those races ever told them Clevelands made so much more power than everyone elses engines. I guess those Cleveland guys must be sand bagging or someting.... It's about as up there as the idiots that say the 427 Cobras were the most awesome cars on the road... that's funny, more races are won with 289 powered 66 Shelby's than Cobra's by about 6:1, with an occasional Chevy in there. If those Cobras were SO "awesome", then why don't they win every race hands down? They don't because "perception" isn't reality, just like your cars. What YOU think is powerful or fast, or what works ain't what someone else thinks it is..... The fat lady (the race track) tells the real story. Are my long posts annoying you?

dodgestang · Jan 5, 2009

Posting on internet forums requires thick skin otherwise you burn out too quickly.

Gud T.B. Blown · Jan 5, 2009

Arron Johnson said:
It's about as up there as the idiots that say the 427 Cobras were the most awesome cars on the road... that's funny, more races are won with 289 powered 66 Shelby's than Cobra's by about 6:1,..

I would guess that the idiots that say things like that don't know that Shelby never raced the 427 in competition.

Hack · Jan 5, 2009

Arron: I'm sorry if you feel offended, but the Cleveland style head is a proven performer. Ford won the Trans Am road racing series with the Cleveland-headed Boss 302 in 1970. Ford has been using Cleveland style heads in Nascar for years! Chivy even changed to a head design similar to the Cleveland for Nascar.

For the original poster, one thing to remember is that it is easy to over-cam a Cleveland, especially a 4V head version. You want to be sure that you go to a Cleveland expert especially for cam selection, because a Cleveland is not the same as a SBC or a 351W. Some people try to treat them the same and then they might end up bad mouthing the Cleveland on some internet forum.

One other side note about the Cleveland is that the intake ports aren't quite as large as they appear when you look at the head. When you slice through the port at an angle it makes the port appear larger.

RogerC62 · Jan 5, 2009

Hack said:
Arron: I'm sorry if you feel offended, but the Cleveland style head is a proven performer. Ford won the Trans Am road racing series with the Cleveland-headed Boss 302 in 1970. Ford has been using Cleveland style heads in Nascar for years! Chivy even changed to a head design similar to the Cleveland for Nascar.

For the original poster, one thing to remember is that it is easy to over-cam a Cleveland, especially a 4V head version. You want to be sure that you go to a Cleveland expert especially for cam selection, because a Cleveland is not the same as a SBC or a 351W. Some people try to treat them the same and then they might end up bad mouthing the Cleveland on some internet forum.

One other side note about the Cleveland is that the intake ports aren't quite as large as they appear when you look at the head. When you slice through the port at an angle it makes the port appear larger.

I wanted to reinforce your comments for the original poster. The cam in my engine is a NAPA replacement for Ford's hipo cam for the 351C (specs in my sig). I built it long ago and can't recall ford's part number. My friend who had the 70 Torino GT also had a 70 cougar convertible. I built my engine the same as his in the cougar. Both engines performed great and would come alive around 2500 rpm like you wouldn't believe and was no slouch in the torque department. It's easy to over cam & over carb the engine. One iteration of my friends 71 Torino he put a tunnel ram intake & dual carbs on it, can't recall the cam. That combination never ran well and its performance was a big disappointment. Incidently, he had about 5 years under his belt as an ASE certified Ford Tech at the time.

A comment on the port size. I had a 72 Gran Torino Sport with a 351C 2V in it back in the early 80s. I had a roommate who had a 70 Torino Cobra he totaled back home. I bought the 429SCJ off of him to put in the GTS. The ports on the SCJ heads were twice the size of the cleve ports. FYI, the 429 was a good 40+ pounds heavier than the 351C dressed.

D.Hearne · Jan 5, 2009

Arron Johnson said:
I guess I'll just shut up then. The 2 or 3 cars you guys have owned that you THINK we so "all that" obviously puts my 30 years of dyno experience, race track experience and the thousands of cars and engines I have worked on & built over those decades to shame, even though (if you guys actually took the time to look in some of my galleries on my web site) you'll see a couple of nasty (500+HP pump gas) Cleveland powered cars on there. Oh and by the way, they DO have dual plane intakes. But et me tell you something, the reason dual plane intakles MAKE a 4v Cleveland work so well is the little RESTRICTOR ports where the plenum goes into the runners. They are HALF the size than the ports on the heads which acts as a venturi. You guys probably wouldn't know that because you have probably never ported numerous dual plane intake Cleveland intake manifolds before, but I have. If you really need an education on that, go find an Edelbrock manifold and actually LOOK at one and then know WHY they did that.... This ain't my first rodeo pilgrims.

So I guess the next time we're out at the vintage races (The Wine Countyry Classics or The Monterey Historic races) with all of the Shelby's, Cobra Jet Torino's, A/C Cobras, Smokey's Camaro's & Chevelle's and limited edition B production & Trans Am race cars where NONE of the Cleveland powered cars EVER come in 1st, 2nd or 3rd, I'll remember what you guys said about Clevelands being SO much more powerful than the littler engine / smaller headed cars who DO place 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Gee, I guess no one at those races ever told them Clevelands made so much more power than everyone elses engines. I guess those Cleveland guys must be sand bagging or someting.... It's about as up there as the idiots that say the 427 Cobras were the most awesome cars on the road... that's funny, more races are won with 289 powered 66 Shelby's than Cobra's by about 6:1, with an occasional Chevy in there. If those Cobras were SO "awesome", then why don't they win every race hands down? They don't because "perception" isn't reality, just like your cars. What YOU think is powerful or fast, or what works ain't what someone else thinks it is..... The fat lady (the race track) tells the real story. Are my long posts annoying you?

This post seems to sum up your whole reason for being here in the first place. You're a legend in your own mind. I really believe after reading thru about a third of what you've posted here in the last week (who's got time to read thru all your postings?) I think you came here to drum up business, not to have fun and swap ideas, like the rest of us here. Your lengthly posts bring an old saying to mind: If you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with BS. The more you keep on , keepin on also makes me suspect you're another of the trolls that pop up here and elsewhere on forums. Go back to your "wine and cheese" vintage racer buddies and try to impress them. I just thought it was me that was getting annoyed with you, but it seems I'm not alone here.

Buckhunter125@h · Jan 5, 2009

Arron

I only told my 351C story to make one point . In the 70's the cleveland was considered to be a very good engine . A factory stock cleveland would flat outrun a factory stock windsor hands down . ................................ Now I realize technology has changed that ,but "back in the day " they would sure do it !!!

I have utmost respect for what you know and the engines you build . Unlike some of these other guys I DO know of you and your engines. You have a very fine reputation . I pay close attention to what you say because I know that you know !!!! ..... 8^) ................ I am not trying to argue or prove you wrong ................. I was just telling another old boring story . ........................ I guess thats what happens when you get old and boring .......... 8^)

Hack · Jan 7, 2009

One thing I should have mentioned earlier is that the Network 54 Cleveland engine forums have an engine build page.

Here's a sample 2V with Aussie CC heads that makes about 300 rwhp.
Cleveland Engine Builds: Roo's nine and a half to one 351 2 tab

A sample 4V build
Cleveland Engine Builds: mild street/strip

Here's an open chamber 2V build
Cleveland Engine Builds: Current setup

Since you are planning an OC 2V build, here's a link to the builder's web site with more details about the engine. I hope that helps!
The Kelly's Hotrod page
edit: after looking at the details, I see that he's using the 4V valves in his head. That's probably not as much help as you'd like. It's a little hard to find 2V OC builds, but this should still be somewhat helpful. Probably the best thing to get more details such as suggestions on cam selection would be to post on the Network 54 Cleveland forum.

Cupid · Jan 9, 2009

Hack said:
One thing I should have mentioned earlier is that the Network 54 Cleveland engine forums have an engine build page.

Here's a sample 2V with Aussie CC heads that makes about 300 rwhp.
Cleveland Engine Builds: Roo's nine and a half to one 351 2 tab

A sample 4V build
Cleveland Engine Builds: mild street/strip

Here's an open chamber 2V build
Cleveland Engine Builds: Current setup

Since you are planning an OC 2V build, here's a link to the builder's web site with more details about the engine. I hope that helps!
The Kelly's Hotrod page
edit: after looking at the details, I see that he's using the 4V valves in his head. That's probably not as much help as you'd like. It's a little hard to find 2V OC builds, but this should still be somewhat helpful. Probably the best thing to get more details such as suggestions on cam selection would be to post on the Network 54 Cleveland forum.

Thanks. Since I haven't pulled the heads yet, I don't know if they are OC or CC. Is there a way to tell w/o taking off the heads?

I have an account over at Net54 so i'll search for cam suggestions over there too. I wish that forum was set up in a more streamlined fashion.

dodgestang · Jan 9, 2009

If you have never taken the motor apart before you are almost 100% that they will be the 2v OC...the quench 2v all come for aussie land.

2V vs. 4V Cleveland Build Question

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