2v vs 4v

Kronos · May 9, 2006

its all about perspectives well stock for stock who puts out more power 4v "but what if the 2v had a blower" then it wouldn't be stock for stock

basicly (pardon the spelling) what we are looking at is you guys that are defending the 2v are partial to the 2v because thats what you have and thats what you love.
sure the 2v is cheaper but its not that cheap especially when you look at prices for 5.0 mods.
so you guys just love the 2v because its what you got and are used to. ch-53 crew chiefs are the same way infact almost every crew chief and mechaninc in the marinecorps that i talk is partial to their bird and everything else sucks... me i just look at the stats and i see which is better and thats the 4v.

hognutz · May 9, 2006

money is money. if you don't have a 4v in your car it is cheaper to boost than buy a 4v. I has nothing to do with defending what you have it is the cost of replacing what you have. buy the time you had a 4v in you car putting down 400whp you could have made you 2v put down 400whp for less money and less work. no favoritsm there just fact.

power is power it does not matte how many valves and engine has. not many people have unlimited buget. If we did we would probably all have twin turbo 4v's.

hotmustang331 · May 9, 2006

Well it is a bit odd, because if you look at the data, P&Pd 2V heads *FLOW* as much and more as stock 01 cobra heads/3V heads.

01 cobra and 05 3V heads flow around 230CFM

P&P 2V heads 225CFM (MPH stg 2.5) and like 245 for stg3.

Now built 2V motor MPH stg 3 heads/custom big cams, ect.= max of 335ishRWHP if staying streetable.

Stock shortblock, stock 01 cobra heads, some nice cams custom Comp cams, ect and you will throw down 350+RWHP EASY.

4V heads are sick....and goes to show you that just because 2 heads flow the same, doesnt mean they will make the same power.

Oh and VT engines built a motor for a guy.

P&Pd mach heads, 324BB stroker, FR500 intake, and custom cams. Car made 470RWHP!

Im going with Ford GT heads and shooting for 500RWHP.
I was going to do 2V, but after thinking it out...I DONT want to spend 5Gs on a 2V just to make 330RWHP lol. Or even if I did make it to 400, its just too expencive for what you get.

Torinalth · May 9, 2006

Marks5.0! said:
theres a 99 cobra on the mach boards, fr500 h/c/i that threw down 410 to the wheels on a stock bottom end and think hes putting down 450ish on a big bore 304 now with the same h/c/i.
Im not saying that the 4v is god but im still impressed by what these 4v's are putting down with even just basic mods.

On the aviator intake, im gonna be finding out how much gain its worth here in a few weeks, gonna swap my p&p stocker and php spacer for an aviator.

thats what i am looking for. do you know if his heads were ported? and is fr500 refering to just the heads, or did he have the fr500heads, fr500 cams, and fr500 intake? did he have any exhaust work done?

and my only power mods are intake track from the plenum forward... but my engine is getting old, so why put the power down if the engine is old on the 2v? and 400 is exactly where i want to be, and i do not care to have the maintanence of a blown car/nitrous car. just wory about the engine and be done with it that and if i ever want to blow it... well.. the 4v is greater.

Torinalth

Kronos · May 9, 2006

hognutz said:
money is money. if you don't have a 4v in your car it is cheaper to boost than buy a 4v. I has nothing to do with defending what you have it is the cost of replacing what you have. buy the time you had a 4v in you car putting down 400whp you could have made you 2v put down 400whp for less money and less work. no favoritsm there just fact.

power is power it does not matte how many valves and engine has. not many people have unlimited buget. If we did we would probably all have twin turbo 4v's.

i'm not talking about twin turbos i'm saying that in the long run it is more cost effective to go 4v than to stay 2v
lets compare
say we both to throw a new motor in our mustangs that are exactly the same
now i opt for the more expensive but more powerful 4v while you stick with the 2v ok how much is a blower for the 2v that would make it faster than the 4v would you say 3-5 grand thats sounds reasonable
then you are now making more horse power than me but how much horse power do you think a blower can give you 1,000 (no you don't have a vtech ) no it would probably give you like any where from 40-80 wouldn't you say now how whats the price difference between our two engines now. lets say we throw all the boltons on there. but you want 400hp so you need better heads and cams and maybe intake well heads are like a grand and cams are like 500 bucksso look how much you paid to get to 400 hp now how much would it take for the 4v sure i woukld spend the extra money on the 4v itself but look how little i have to spend to get the rest of the way s/c and some boltons and i am well over when you have peaked your potential. the 4v has just started soi think in the long run the 4v is the better option if you think its that much more expensive think how much money you would have to invest just to get as much hp out of a 2v as there is in a 4v.

5spd GT · May 9, 2006

Intake design is different on the 2v than 4v, that will equate in some number differences as well, not just the heads.

hognutz · May 9, 2006

Kronos said:
i'm not talking about twin turbos i'm saying that in the long run it is more cost effective to go 4v than to stay 2v
lets compare
say we both to throw a new motor in our mustangs that are exactly the same
now i opt for the more expensive but more powerful 4v while you stick with the 2v ok how much is a blower for the 2v that would make it faster than the 4v would you say 3-5 grand thats sounds reasonable
then you are now making more horse power than me but how much horse power do you think a blower can give you 1,000 (no you don't have a vtech ) no it would probably give you like any where from 40-80 wouldn't you say now how whats the price difference between our two engines now. lets say we throw all the boltons on there. but you want 400hp so you need better heads and cams and maybe intake well heads are like a grand and cams are like 500 bucksso look how much you paid to get to 400 hp now how much would it take for the 4v sure i woukld spend the extra money on the 4v itself but look how little i have to spend to get the rest of the way s/c and some boltons and i am well over when you have peaked your potential. the 4v has just started soi think in the long run the 4v is the better option if you think its that much more expensive think how much money you would have to invest just to get as much hp out of a 2v as there is in a 4v.

I can get a 9psi kit for $4800. that is ~380whp no other mods. I don't think I could get a 380whp 4v for $4800.

you show me where I can get that then I will listen to you. until then I agree to disagree with you. I have driven a mach 1 and that about doing that swap but when i priced it all out it just ads up and you have 275whp.

billfisher · May 9, 2006

svttech76 said:
4v is the way to go.. in fact I looked at a 03 mach1 today with 15k miles on it. but guess how much they wanted for it.. 26k <--- I almost slapped the salesman when he told me the price. I am trying to make up my mind if I am willing to put in a offer for 19k and see if they take it.

If I stay with the GT I will swap to 4v soon. thats why I have no engine mods.

right on.
i am also going to be switching to 4v... after i am satisfied with this.

ultimately 5.4 with good ported 03-04 c heads flowing 300+ cfm is enough. i get tempted to stop this project and make the change now. especially when i hear the 450 rwhp 5 litre 4v. hot331 you are right about the ported flow, but who keeps 4v stock? not to mention laminar flow at low lift. 2v can't compete with the area under the curve average flow. do what you can afford ultimately, but do it right.

Mike97gt · May 10, 2006

billfisher said:
right on.
i am also going to be switching to 4v... after i am satisfied with this.

ultimately 5.4 with good ported 03-04 c heads flowing 300+ cfm is enough. i get tempted to stop this project and make the change now. especially when i hear the 450 rwhp 5 litre 4v. hot331 you are right about the ported flow, but who keeps 4v stock? not to mention laminar flow at low lift. 2v can't compete with the area under the curve average flow. do what you can afford ultimately, but do it right.

I am leaning toward keeping the GT and swaping in a 4v. it would be a lot of fun staying stock looking and N/A with a built 4V... The look on some LS-1 drivers faces would be worth the price to swap to ported 4V heads with custom cams

HoustonGT · May 10, 2006

hognutz said:
I can get a 9psi kit for $4800. that is ~380whp no other mods. I don't think I could get a 380whp 4v for $4800.

you show me where I can get that then I will listen to you. until then I agree to disagree with you. I have driven a mach 1 and that about doing that swap but when i priced it all out it just ads up and you have 275whp.

Actually you can get the Mongoose kit from Tim for about $3800 and hit around 380rwhp or so, but then again spend the same amount for a supercharger on a 4V and the car will make crazy numbers.
Just shows how much better the 4v engine is than the 2v simply put. I mean mod for mod, blower for blower, the 2v will NOT Touch the 4v, so i think that obviously shows which is better.

Torinalth · May 10, 2006

looking at keeping the money low as possible while still getting my goal. any idea what full intake (possibly aviator upper and lower, or ported 01 cobra), full exhaust, ported heads (mach1), with medium range cams + tune would net? my main concern is if i need to spend the money differently (full aviator engine vs shortblock) if i need to get my hands on the fr500 heads instead of the mach1 heads.

it also decides my time line, if i can use the aviator heads (mach1) then i will need to have them ported and get the cams before i put the engine in the car. while if i need the fr500s i can use the stock ones and build the intake and exhaust up then add the ported fr500s with cams when i have the extra money.

my main goal is just replacing the motor in my daily driver with something more reliable and more potent but have it very streetable with as little maintanence and thing to check as possible. (i will be adding water, oil, and A/F gagues[with a wideband] once i get further along).

thoughts?

Torinalth

DropTopPony · May 10, 2006

Torinalth said:
looking at keeping the money low as possible while still getting my goal. any idea what full intake (possibly aviator upper and lower, or ported 01 cobra), full exhaust, ported heads (mach1), with medium range cams + tune would net? my main concern is if i need to spend the money differently (full aviator engine vs shortblock) if i need to get my hands on the fr500 heads instead of the mach1 heads.

it also decides my time line, if i can use the aviator heads (mach1) then i will need to have them ported and get the cams before i put the engine in the car. while if i need the fr500s i can use the stock ones and build the intake and exhaust up then add the ported fr500s with cams when i have the extra money.

my main goal is just replacing the motor in my daily driver with something more reliable and more potent but have it very streetable with as little maintanence and thing to check as possible. (i will be adding water, oil, and A/F gagues[with a wideband] once i get further along).

thoughts?

Torinalth

Sounds like your mind is made up....4V parts are not cheap so cost will be high because even 96-98 4V guys are seeking the newer heads/intakes....so supply is low and demand is high. You will be able to offset some of the money by selling your 2V engine.....check in the Corral 4 sale area. Lots of 4V stuff 4 sale including ported heads/intakes aftermarket cams/blocks etc.

tomustang · May 10, 2006

I think it's funny how blowers threads never change dirrection twrds 'why don't you go N/A?' but a "I want to stay N/A' always gets alot of replys about going the blower route

Torinalth · May 10, 2006

tomustang said:
I think it's funny how blowers threads never change dirrection twrds 'why don't you go N/A?' but a "I want to stay N/A' always gets alot of replys about going the blower route

blowers are popular... and its nice to say... yeah i've got a blown mustang.... well... i'd rather say "I have a few boltons" and still put out 400 hp. i toyed with the blower route, but dont think i really want to... plus it would not achieve my one problem of having a tired old 2v that needs to be replaced... so why put a KB on internals that are not happy to begin with.

hognutz · May 10, 2006

HoustonGT said:
Actually you can get the Mongoose kit from Tim for about $3800 and hit around 380rwhp or so, but then again spend the same amount for a supercharger on a 4V and the car will make crazy numbers.
Just shows how much better the 4v engine is than the 2v simply put. I mean mod for mod, blower for blower, the 2v will NOT Touch the 4v, so i think that obviously shows which is better.

i am not that impressed buy the times of a car with the mongoose kit only. I don't think they make enough low end power. I mean a mach 1 motor vs a vortech mongoose kit would be a race. a stock mach 1 powered car vs a the 9spi kit would be like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest if you can drive it.

I guess it all depends if you are arguing theoretical output of the engine or real life as in buget and hp goal. in theory mod for mod the 4v is better can't be argued. In real life there ar no 4v gt's so ou have to source an engine. almost everbody has a hp goal and a budget. the 4v is not always the most economical choice. I know becauce I added it all up. the 4v swap was more money and a quite a bit more work as you get into wireing harness differences, etc as there are all kinds of smal thing that have to be done to complete the swap.

edbo · May 10, 2006

gtstangau said:
but a 4v with 14lbs of boost would be insanely fast!

Or 15lbs even!!

DBMSTNG · May 10, 2006

Kronos said:
i'm not talking about twin turbos i'm saying that in the long run it is more cost effective to go 4v than to stay 2v
lets compare
say we both to throw a new motor in our mustangs that are exactly the same
now i opt for the more expensive but more powerful 4v while you stick with the 2v ok how much is a blower for the 2v that would make it faster than the 4v would you say 3-5 grand thats sounds reasonable
then you are now making more horse power than me but how much horse power do you think a blower can give you 1,000 (no you don't have a vtech ) no it would probably give you like any where from 40-80 wouldn't you say now how whats the price difference between our two engines now. lets say we throw all the boltons on there. but you want 400hp so you need better heads and cams and maybe intake well heads are like a grand and cams are like 500 bucksso look how much you paid to get to 400 hp now how much would it take for the 4v sure i woukld spend the extra money on the 4v itself but look how little i have to spend to get the rest of the way s/c and some boltons and i am well over when you have peaked your potential. the 4v has just started soi think in the long run the 4v is the better option if you think its that much more expensive think how much money you would have to invest just to get as much hp out of a 2v as there is in a 4v.

you really have no clue what you're talking about, do you?

let's start out with 2 identical GT's. one will get a 4V swap, the other a Vortech blower (just for reference). both can be had for the $3k range. the 4V GT will make about 270-280rwhp. the blown GT will make about 360-380rwhp. start adding mods to both and a blown GT will make more power while being perfectly streetable, and you want have to sacrifice low end power to gain big peak power.

with equal $ spent
N/A 4.6L 4V swap < blown 2V

now there is no doubt a N/A 4V is better than a N/A 2V.

DBMSTNG · May 10, 2006

HoustonGT said:
I mean mod for mod, blower for blower, the 2v will NOT Touch the 4v, so i think that obviously shows which is better.

that may not always true. i believe it was Kenne Belle who discovered that a 2V with a blower, cams, and ported heads actually made more power than the same setup on a 4V with cams and ported heads. it had something to do with one big single exhaust valve being better in forced induction applications than 2 small exhaust valves. i wish i could find the article.

big T · May 10, 2006

DerekStangGT said:
well, everyone says that 4v>2v for a reason. the 4v is obviously prone to higher hp and a better reaction to mods. reason is the 4v heads can flow better than 2v. someone correct me if im wrong, but i believe the block/rotating assemblies in the cobra are the same specs as the GTs. additional power on the cobras (NA, not 03+) is made from the better flowing heads, more aggressive cams, and software.
the same principles have always applied, the more air/fuel you can cram into the combustion chamber, the more power you will make. obviously a bore job will net you more power on your stock block, and then increase exponentially based on your other mods i.e. intake, cams, etc.
sorry i dont have any hard info or links, but it would just make sense to, if you wanted the most amount of N/A power, switch to a bigger engine or better flowing engine

Agreed, but the 03-04 cobra's have forged internals. Ive heard that tim at mod pwr hse can extract 900 flywheel hspwr on a built 2v and roughly 1300+ on a 4v...he might be a good person to call and he is a big 2v lover as well. Al papito is a 4v lover at boss 330 racing and builds 9 sec n/a 4v's too.

Malevolyn · May 11, 2006

The older Cobra block (the aluminum one) can be submerged without cracking!

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