302 swap into '90 240sx...

[j-z]

hey guys im new to the pushrod scene, i just picked up a 302 out of a fox yesterday for $60 with complete wire harness and ecu! this past sunday i picked up a 1990 s13 hatch shell for free. im gonna need some help from you pushrod/ford gurus...

heres the plan. i want to rebuild the motor (something ive done quite a few times), and get atleast 300 to the wheels NA. im going to be revving the piss outta this motor. straight up beatin the shlt out of it. im coming from dohc I4 motors so please bare with me, and inform me at the same time. what all will i NEED to do motor wise to get what i want out of it? i was thinkin along the lines of 11.5:1 .40 over pistons, cam of course (dont know which one, but one that makes power up top), springs?, what about the stock rods? since it is a MAF ecu it will compensate for the changes i do, but to what extent? by saying that, im of course staying fuel injected. i need a ps pump, alt (brackets for those two), starter, t5 tranny, front sump setup (where can i source that out of?), maf, harmonic balancer, flywheel, and thats about all i can think of off the top of my head.

i just want to know for now where i can source the front sump setup out of. i want to do this as cheap as possible. i will be doing all the work myself, except for the actual machining. also, my clutch setup is hydraulic, while the t5 is cable. whats the best solution for that? give me some pointers on doing this the cheapest way possible to get 300 to the ground with a nice even powerband. will the stock injectors support this? what about the ecu? will it support 300 without having to change any maping? any help/info/links are appreciated. i will post pics once i get the tranny and front sump setup so i can get down to business with making the mounts.

 

[88mouse]

If you want to see 300 at the tires i would buy a trick flow top end kit. Will come with a set of heads, intake, and cam. Then you will need a tb, i would go with a 70mm. You will need a set of injectors, and a meter calibrated for the injectors. You can go to a junk yard and pick up the acc. for the front of the motor. You will probly have to get the ecu tune after all the work is done and the car is running. Cj pony sell a hyd. clutch kit for the t5's.

 

[z2o_what]

finding a front sump oil pan shouldn't be hard, most older ford cars use front sump oil pans and IIRC f150 do also. i think '79+ cars (not just mustangs) all use duel sump.

as for the clutch issue, i would try to put the pedal assembly out of a mustang in the 240.

if that won't work then mabey a lower slave cylinder that goes on the imput shaft (one for a 2.9 ranger might work) , and using the stock upper slave cylinder.

you also could probally mount a slave cylinder on the tranny so that it pushes the fork forward (instead of towards the rearof the car) seeing as how you will not find a sbf t5 bellhousing that is made for hydrolic clutch.

you may even be able to use a 5 speed from a tbird sc. they arnt t5's and they use hydrolic clutch.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

1.) i want to rebuild the motor (something ive done quite a few times), and get atleast 300 to the wheels NA.

2.) im going to be revving the piss outta this motor. straight up beatin the shlt out of it. im coming from dohc I4 motors so please bare with me, and inform me at the same time.

3.) what all will i NEED to do motor wise to get what i want out of it? i was thinkin along the lines of 11.5:1 .40 over pistons, cam of course (dont know which one, but one that makes power up top), springs?, what about the stock rods?

4.) since it is a MAF ecu it will compensate for the changes i do, but to what extent? by saying that, im of course staying fuel injected. i need a ps pump, alt (brackets for those two), starter, t5 tranny, front sump setup (where can i source that out of?), maf, harmonic balancer, flywheel, and thats about all i can think of off the top of my head.

i just want to know for now where i can source the front sump setup out of. i want to do this as cheap as possible. i will be doing all the work myself, except for the actual machining. also, my clutch setup is hydraulic, while the t5 is cable. whats the best solution for that? give me some pointers on doing this the cheapest way possible to get 300 to the ground with a nice even powerband. will the stock injectors support this? what about the ecu? will it support 300 without having to change any maping? any help/info/links are appreciated. i will post pics once i get the tranny and front sump setup so i can get down to business with making the mounts.

Believe it or not, most of your questions can be answered by searching both this forum and Classic Mustang Tech.

1.) See above comment.
2.) Do you just want to spin it fast, or do you think you need to? Whether or not you want to, you don't need to. 6500 is more rpm than you'll need to make the power you want.
3.) See first comment.
4.) You'll have to do some bandaid workarounds with the stock ECU in order to support 300+rwhp. Bigger injectors with a properly calibrated MAF and an AFPR are some.

Front sump pans and pickups can be found in trucks and '60s to '70s smallblock-equipped Fords.

All you need is a slave cylinder and bracket for the T5.

 

[j-z]

the main thing is i want to do this as cheap as possible... i will be using the car for drift events (holding high revs, not revving to 8k or anything like that), time attack, road racing, and auto-x. the trick flow kit you speak of will cost half of what i put into the entire car once its done, so thats out of the question.

i really like that slave setup... where i can i find that at? i def need that.

up to what power level will the stock injectors support while being in the safe zone? and when you say bandaid workarounds with the stock ecu what exactly do you mean? something like a apexi safc to add fuel?

thanks for the info thus far.

 

[Hickfied]

Cheap. Fast. Reliable. Pick two.

300RWHP done RIGHT is insanely cheap for 3k.

Personally, I would go with 24# injectors if your going to keep the revs up, just so the thought of 100% duty cycle on the stockers isn't in the back of my head.

Try to keep the bore to .03 or less, the late model blocks don't like .04 or more (atleast all the ones I have had) If you wanna run pump gas, keep the CR to 10.5:1. If you have a 89-early 92 engine (ince you said MAF) id feel safe running 300 @ the wheels. If you have a late 92 or 93-95 engine, just get a 347 stroker kit, I wouldn't feel safe spinning those hyper. pistons.

300 RWHP can be had only spinning to 6k.

If I were you, I would read up ALOT more before you decide on, or buy anything else.

 

[jrichker]

The problem you are going to have is that the body may not be strong enough to handle the torque of the engine. Unless the car weighs less than 3000 lbs with the stock engine in it, you would be better off with a 4 cylinder Mustang coupe converted to a 5.0, or a 5.0 coupe. The 87-95 5.0 brakes and 8.8” rear axle will bolt up under a Mustang 4 cylinder coupe with minimum trouble.

The brakes on the import will be marginal and the rear axle isn't going to take the torque levels that a good running 5.0 will deliver. The weight distribution will be way off with a good 200 lbs more on the front wheels. That means the car will be nose heavy and plow through the turns under full power. That means you can’t turn fast enough to make corners at good speed. Let off on the throttle while the nose is plowing, and the tail of the car comes around very suddenly without warning.

In order to be a good drifter, the car has to have very close to a perfect 50/50 weight distribution and neutral handling. That sort of performance is hard to do with a Mustang that is designed for road racing. It will be even harder to do with an import that had a light engine in the front and dinky little rear axle designed to handle 100-150 HP.

If you are bound and determined to do the swap, plan on the car being a drag race sleeper. You are unlikely to get the car to handle well in anything but a straight line.

 

[ninety15.0]

I agree with jrichker. Its going to take way more money than you want to spend to make this project happen. And even more to make it drift well. Weight distribution is going to kill you. I would venture to say that you will be close to 60/40 with the 5 litre running gear in the 240. Thats what most stock stangs are sitting at. If you make improvements to save weight everywhere you can in the front of the car and relocate as much weight as possible into the back of the car you may get closer to 55/45 which is still not ideal. What you are going to need is: Aluminum heads they will take 40-50 lbs off the top of the motor which is EXACTLY where you need to loose weight. Possibly an AL radiator. You are going to want to ditch every accessory you arent going to need. You need to relocate the battery to the trunk for sure. Delete all EGR and emissions equipment. the engine compartment of the 240 must be empty except for the engine and necessary supporting parts. This is no small feat.

Here's the other major problem, you arent going to make 300rwhp on the stock injectors and mass air meter...it just wont happen. You are going to need to upgrade those components (~$500). Combine that with the cost of aluminum heads (1000), and an intake manifold (250-450) and you are looking at almost 2g's in absolutely necessary parts. Never mind machine/block work, pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, roller rockers, pushrods, lifters, blah blah blah. And we haven't even discussed a cam if you want to shift the power band up into the higher rpms.

You are also going to need some sort of exhaust system...which is going to be very difficult because i doubt any stock long tubes are going to fit under the 240....which means custom work or crappy shorty headers and even more $$.

I think you should re-evaluate your goals with this car. generally when people do these domestic/import swaps they spend at least 10g's. We havent even talked about suspension yet...and they fact that you are now dealing with a much heavier front end. I think you are a little over your head. It would be a shame to see something like this get started and then abandoned for lack of cash or motivation. Just My opinion.

 

[j-z]

ok... i KNEW i was going to get a few of these posts... obviously none of yall know who i am, or what im capable of. the MAIN point of this thread was to inform me about the 302 motor itself and the cheapest way to get 300 whp NA. i have gotten a few tips from some of yall which i thank you for. i already know im gonna have to go with some shorty/block hugger headers. exhaust... i can make. and i also knew someone was going to say cheap, fast, reliable, pick two. ive been doing this for almost 6 years now....

i know what im up against and im fully capable of doing it. ive done cheap, fast and relieable numerous times. how? i do all the building/fab/tuning myself, so therefore it is cheap, reliable, and fast.

heres my last 240 i did just to give yall a heads up

and a money shot... the reason why i wont by a fox or a mustang period... because theyre ugly

this motor i full i built along with all new turbo components for about 4k. this was about a year and a half ago. i tuned it myself... needed money, sold it, and a guy from texas flew down here and drove it non stop from here in orlando to there. i just recently talked to him and he hasnt touched a thing on it. not to mention i was boosting 17 psi all day everyday puttin down 300/300. so the comment about the 240 rear end is BS. people are putting lsX motors in their 240s with the stock rear and they hold just dandy. do any of yall even know how much the ka motor weighs? its a iron block, plus i had all the turbo shlt on it, and ac/ps as well. handled like a dream. nimble as shlt, and very predictable. im willing to bet that with the setup i had in the s14 will weigh about the same as the 302 with the iron heads, or about 75-100 lbs heavier at the most.

as for the handling comment.... guess you never heard of an adjustable rear sway? not to mention, yall dont know where the motor is going... of course its going in the front, but ima put that bitch as far back and low as possible. only thing ill be running is the alt, and ps. the car is FULLY gutted. i estimate with everything said and done it will weigh around 2700 lbs with full cage. stock, the car weighs 27XX.

i came onto this forum to get info from the '302/ford gurus'.

NOW, back onto the main subject. i want to do this as cheap as possible. still run on pump gas. whats the stock intake mani capable of? i know i def want to change out the TB because the one on my ka is bigger than this punny thing. where can i source one of those out of (stock oem part)? if i change the maf and injectors wont i need to do something with the ecu, or is there a special combination that evens itself out? this is the kind of info im looking for. forget i even said 240. lets keep this focused on 300 whp na 302 for as cheap as possible. i have the x303 cam in mind with some 11:1 20 over pistons . ill prob just do those for now and anything else i want to do down the road i wont have to pull the motor for... are the stock rods good for hanging up in the rev band for a good minute?

 

[wht87gt]

Your not gonna get much help in here talking about how ugly you think mustangs are.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

none of yall know who i am, or what im capable of.

It doesn't matter and it shouldn't be an issue anyway. The stand-offish ego-fluffing tone isn't going to win any points here. With that said...

1.) Stock intake? maybe a ceiling of 240rwhp. It's a bottleneck, but can be ported to reduce that effect.
2.) Stock TB is ~60mm. Some later 5.0s have 65s.They can be used, but are not plug-and-play. 65-70mm is a good size range for most mild 5.0s.
3.) The reason behind getting a MAF that is "calibrated" for larger injectors is so you don't have to go digging in the ECU code. This is one of the work-arounds I mentioned. This method works well enough, but it's not ideal.
3.) 11:1 compression is IMO too much for pump gas and iron heads. I personally would aim lower around 10 to 10.5:1. Compression is less important if you upgrade the induction, however.
4.) I also think the X303 is too large depending on the heads. For stock heads, something like a B-cam would be better fitting. That or one from a good aftermarket company.
5.) The stock are pretty safe up to 6500 or more, but you definitely want to get some ARP bolts. Bolts are a given for any engine, IMO.
6.) The stock headers aren't that bad. Hold off on those for now. Smoothing out the welds inside won't hurt.

On a side note:
A.) Did your aluminum-headed KA24DE weigh 500lbs? No? A fully-dressed 5.0 does.
B.) You can't chip a Ford EEC-IV computer the same way you can a Nissan Jecs or dual chip ECU. You'll need what's called a "J3", "J3 board" or "J3 tuner" that plugs into an edgecard port on the ECU's mainboard. It allows the ECU to run maps on the J3 tuner instead of the onboard memory. Moates.net is a good place to look, but there are others that are more user-friendly like TwEECer and EEC Tuner.

 

[niklid05]

theres a guy over on corral that has a 302 240sx. I tried finding him but had no luck.

 

[j-z]

youre right, it shouldnt matter... i was just saying and showing pics of my last 240 just so i dont get treated like some noob who doesnt know what hes talking about. if theres something i dont know, ill ask (hence the reason why i signed up here and asking for yalls advice.

where can i find these calibrated mafs you speak of? also, a link to that slave setup would be sweet too! yes, rod bolts are def on the list. like i said i want to do this as cheap as possible. what can i do with the stock maf and injectors and intake just to get me going down the road for now and do Al heads later down the road?

b303 or x303 cam, 10.5:1 pistons or mill the heads, port the stock heads or get some gt40p heads, aftermarket shorty headers to fit in the engine bay, bigger TB, rod bolts, stock intake, lighter flywheel, stock maf, stock injectors, afpr (?), walbro 255 lph pump, ign coil.... yay, nay?

also, the ka in stock form fully dressed is more than 400 for sure. im trying to find the exact weight, but i know the ls1 is LIGHTER than the ka. yes, its all aluminum, but that gives you an idea. with my old ka being turboed, i know it was really really close to 500 lbs if not dead on....

i appreciate youre insight shelby.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

1.) i was just saying and showing pics of my last 240 just so i dont get treated like some noob who doesnt know what hes talking about.

2.) where can i find these calibrated mafs you speak of? also, a link to that slave setup would be sweet too! yes, rod bolts are def on the list. like i said i want to do this as cheap as possible. what can i do with the stock maf and injectors and intake just to get me going down the road for now and do Al heads later down the road?

3.) b303 or x303 cam, 10.5:1 pistons or mill the heads, port the stock heads or get some gt40p heads, aftermarket shorty headers to fit in the engine bay, bigger TB, rod bolts, stock intake, lighter flywheel, stock maf, stock injectors, afpr (?), walbro 255 lph pump, ign coil.... yay, nay?

No matter how it sounded, I was not intending to come down on or single anyone out.

1.) That's an unfortunate side-effect of being new to most forums because the stereotypical(and average) newbie doesn't know anything. Sometimes it's hard to maintain a neutral tone when communicating through text alone, so misinterpretations are not uncommon. We'll keep an open mind if you do.

2.) I'm not the best source of 5.0-specific parts info anymore as I haven't had one for several years now. When I sold mine, Pro-M was the one to have. Then there was some mystery about them going under, then resurfacing, etc. I quit paying attention. My car had a C&L(which everyone loves to hate) and it worked fine once I got the right calibration tube for it. Regarding the clutch slave setup, I don't know whose it is or where they got it. I think I found that picture in the Classic Mustang forum here.

3.) The pump is a little large for what you'll be doing, but it will work. Make sure the fuel return line can handle the extra bypassed fuel. Also, the stock MAF is smaller than the stock TB, so a ~73-75mm MAF will probably yield more gain than a big TB/stock MAF.

I forgot to give a plug to Thumper460 on here. He sells a few ported stock head packages. site > http://www.thumperoforangepark.com/

tmoss (username here) also does porting on stock intakes. http://www.tmossporting.com/tabid/310/Default.aspx

I remember reading very good reviews for the Thumper heads+tmoss intake combos. Just another option or two.

Another option that will save you lots of money on fuel and induction parts(and still see a good power gain) is to simply convert to a carbureted setup. Not only that, it would be EASY.

 

[poneypower89]

Here is a suggestion.

Keep the motor bone stock... (with a decent rebuild). Then build a Junkyard turbo set-up for it.

Check out www.turbomustangs.com. Plenty of guys are making over 400hp over there with a stock 302 and some boost. If you have fabrication skills then building the turbo set-up yourself can be done for around 1,000. Give or take.

 

[j-z]

yes i was intentionally going to boost it, but i thought that a 300 NA motor would be better for what im wanting to do with the car. ive thought about carbing it, but that seems like the easy way out. shoot me some pros and cons of FI and carbing for what i want to do with the car. it will be spending half of its drive time sideways so keep that in mind....

im going to check that site out after i finish typing this. thanks

 

[Mustang78]

[/QUOTE]the reason why i wont by a fox or a mustang period... because theyre ugly [/QUOTE]

you should be for saying that

~Mark~

 

[strtrcr50]

Here's a good source for a calibrated mass air sensor. It's the PMAS Velocity.
Link

 

[96SVTpilot]

Dude, you need to face facts you aren't going to see 300 to the wheels without some kind of adder. All the boring, rebuilding, and new cams in the world are not going to do any good if you are putting the stock heads and intake back on. You do know the stock 5.0 only puts down 190ish stock right? Where do you think you are going to find another 100 without spending some $$$. You have ambition but that only gets you so far. Even a 5.0 Cobra motor only put down 260 or so, and you want to get more out of lesser parts. Listen to the other poster who suggested a trick flow top end kit, he's right on the money. You could also go with edelbrock, ford racing, or holley.

BTW you never did say why you need 300rwhp to drift. A stock 5.0 will burn the tires all day long. It's all about the torque.

 

[1.8kmint]

Its doubtful even with porting that you will see 300 rwhp out of the stock heads and intake. I think the max power for those even with cam swap, tb, headers, cai, injectors, is about 280rwhp. You going to need to get some aftermarket parts if you want to cross the 300 mark or add some sort of boost.