302 to 302 H.O. Conversion

Michael Yount · Aug 22, 2005

Yup - it's no problem buying a flat tappet cam in the HO or non-HO firing order. If he's going carbed anyway, and flat tappet - he can put in any cam/firing order he wants (HO or non-HO) - all he has to do is order the distributor wires accordingly.

Michael Yount · Aug 22, 2005

....oh, and sometimes the gear material on the distributor needs to change depending on cam selection as well - others can chime in on that front.

Michael Yount · Aug 22, 2005

Boss351 - forgive him for he knew not what he said...(responding to your pre-editted reply...)

COBRAIIW · Aug 22, 2005

Michael Yount said:
"I read all of these ideas, and no one has mentioned that the crank must be changed.
Different firing order means different crank and matching camshaft."

The reason no one mentioned it is because you're severely mis-informed. Camshaft (when the valves open and close) determines firing order - not the crank. The only differences between cranks are material and manufacturing process (cast iron, steel, cast, forged, etc.) and journal size (351 has bigger journals than a 302) -- other than that the throws are configured exactly the same. To convert a 302 to an HO firing order simply use a cam for an HO application and 1) for carbed cars - just wire the distributor accordingly; 2) for sefi cars - use a computer that has an injector firing order that matches the cam you've chosen.

Crank has nothing to do with it on this application.

so let's see, when the number one piston is up to fire, and the cam has the number five valves closed it will work?

Michael Yount · Aug 22, 2005

CobraIIw - that won't happen with the application we're discussing here. Both the nonHO and HO firing orders (same crank) fire the #1 cylinder first. There are only 4 cylinders that are different between the two firing orders. 4 of them fire at the same point in the order. No one is saying that you can run any firing order you want on the camshaft. It's simply that the non-HO and HO firing orders will work with the same crank. The reason is that the difference in the orders only affects whether certain cylinders are on the exhaust stroke when the piston is at tdc or on the compression stroke.

You see? The 351W and HO302 firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8; the non-HO 302's are 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. 1, 2, 6, and 8 fire at the same point; 3, 4, 5 and 7 simply swap out the exhaust stroke and the compression stroke. You're trying to make it more complex than it is.

Point is - for this application - crank isn't an issue at all. Either cam can be used with the proper ignition and efi changes.

COBRAIIW · Aug 22, 2005

Now for the bigger question, will the 351w crank,pistons,rods,camshaft, work in a 302 H.O.?

COBRAIIW · Aug 22, 2005

Michael Yount said:
CobraIIw - that won't happen with the application we're discussing here. Both the nonHO and HO firing orders (same crank) fire the #1 cylinder first. There are only 4 cylinders that are different between the two firing orders. 4 of them fire at the same point in the order. No one is saying that you can run any firing order you want on the camshaft. It's simply that the non-HO and HO firing orders will work with the same crank. The reason is that the difference in the orders only affects whether certain compression stroke.

You see? The 351W and HO302 firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8; the non-HO 302's are 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. 1, 2, 6, and 8 fire at the same point; 3, 4, 5 and 7 simply swap out the exhaust stroke and the compression stroke. You're trying to make it more complex than it is.

Point is - for this application - crank isn't an issue at all. Either cam can be used with the proper ignition and efi changes.

Maybe this explains why when I tried to get the engine running I had some problems. I used the old 302 firing order, (because at that time I didn't know that the firing order for HO was different) I had the distributer 180 out, and it sorta ran okay, then I swapped two cylinders and it ran a little better but still not right.The backfiring stopped though.
Then two weeks later I found out about the firing order .
Gotta love Ford.

Michael Yount · Aug 22, 2005

"Maybe this explains why when I tried to get the engine running I had some problems." I'd say it partially explains it -- in addition, it sounds like you weren't particularly well grounded in what you were trying to do.

The 351W cam will work in an HO302 (same firing order). However, the 351 crank has larger journals than the 302 and the block would have to be notched even more than for a 347 stroker build - so, as a practical matter - no, it won't work (with machining/welding, almost anything is possible). As for the 3.5 inch stroke and much longer 351 rod/piston combination designed for a 9.5" deck height in the 302's 8.2" deck height -- well, how do you feel about not being able to bolt the head on because of the pistons poking an inch or so above the 302's deck?

MU5TANGGT · Aug 22, 2005

If you are going to stick with the AOD and use the carb setup, provisions will have to be made for the TV cable or the trans won't shift right

COBRAIIW · Aug 22, 2005

Mother Mopar made everything so easy.
Still trying to learn this Ford stuff.

Mysterio · Aug 23, 2005

What's the difference from the HO firing order to the non HO firing order? What are each engines firing orders?

Michael Yount · Aug 23, 2005

Mysterio - read the last post, first page...

cup1981 · Aug 23, 2005

Wow..Thanks alot guy's, looks like all I am going to do is put the HO intake and the heads on it and maybe throw the 351 cam in and be done with it...lol. Ya, I know about the Kickdown cable AKA TV cable, I own my own tranny shop so I can handle that part of it, thankfully!! I am going today to look at a few mustangs including the one w/ the blown motor. Some are 5.0's and others are 4 cyls. Lets cross our fingers here..

Modular2v · Aug 23, 2005

if you are going to use an aod make sure that ur route the tv/kickdown cable to the carb so you dont burn the tranny up

cup1981 · Aug 23, 2005

Okay, I went and looked at the mustangs...they are all ridiculously high. I swear this guy was on drugs. He had 3 4cyl convertibles(87,88,89) all needed tops and had ratty interiors and body damage, he wanted $800 each had 2 GT's (88, 90) Both were smashed bad in the front, only one fender was good on each, he wanted $1000 each and they had over 100k. I could have sworn he said one had a blown motor but good body...This is a prime example of how outrageous mustangs are here!!

Darkwriter77 · Aug 23, 2005

First off, kudos for picking a Town Car to do a HO conversion. Comfort is nothing without the muscle to get it going off the line ... and the HO's more economical/efficient, to boot.

Go to either crownvic.net or lincolnsonline.com, where they have multiple tech articles and forum posts detailing all the basics of the HO swap. In a nutshell, if you're keeping the stock block and keeping EFI, you'll need:
E7 heads
HO cam
HO lower intake manifold
stock HO throttle body (will have to flip the butterly unless you reverse the upper manifold)
19-pound injectors
ECM from speed density-controlled AOD Mustang or Lincoln HO
stock or aftermarket shorty headers (stock Town Car headers will work, but will be a serious bottleneck)
Catted or off-road 2.5" H-pipe is mandated when using Mustang headers, as the stock logs are too small (unless you like lots of welding)

There's a slew of other goodies you can tack onto that list for added "ooomph," but that's the essentials. If you're going carb'ed, just scratch off the HO manifold and injectors, change the ECM to like an '84-'85 Mustang AOD (non-CFI), toss on a performance intake manifold and carb of choice, and Lokar shift linkage (for the AOD kickdown).

Can't recall if you said yours was a pre-'86 model or not. If it is, you're likely running CFI, in which case you're far better off just going with the carb'ed setup. Good news of that is you're free to do a lot more wildness for far fewer dollars. Lots of fun to be had, either way. Good luck!

COBRAIIW · Aug 23, 2005

OMG !!
I just read what I wrote last night.
Note to self: Keep away from forums after drinking.
Sorry guys.

95GTAODE · Aug 23, 2005

With what you are starting with, going carb is going to be the best (and the cheapest) bet. That Linc motor will have a flat tappet cam, and there are plenty of flat grinds out there, and they're generally cheaper than a roller too. Grab an RPM or Stealth intake, a dizzy from a '79-'84 carbed 'stang and a Duraspark ignition box. You will need a Lokar TV cable for the AOD, and dropping it in to a 4 pot is much simpler than doing it with FI.

cup1981 · Aug 23, 2005

95GTAODE said:
With what you are starting with, going carb is going to be the best (and the cheapest) bet. That Linc motor will have a flat tappet cam, and there are plenty of flat grinds out there, and they're generally cheaper than a roller too. Grab an RPM or Stealth intake, a dizzy from a '79-'84 carbed 'stang and a Duraspark ignition box. You will need a Lokar TV cable for the AOD, and dropping it in to a 4 pot is much simpler than doing it with FI.

Ya, now that I am back at square one with this whole thing, after looking at those POS mustangs this may be what I do. I just have to find the right mustang...prolly gonna be a 4 cyl.

MU5TANGGT · Aug 23, 2005

Just one more thing, if you happen to dip into the 80"s for a chassis make sure you stay away from the 3.8 V6 cars, has a different K-member if I remember that won't accept the V8

302 to 302 H.O. Conversion

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