331 Stroker HP Expectations

compression??

My combo is similar to yours with 10.5 compression and it made 338hp/378tq at the wheels in August with a crappy tune and fuel issues over 5000 rpm. I am working on the issues now and hope to dyno it again in the spring.

If compression is 10.5:1+ I.d be looking for 380RWHP+...although I am not a fan of that cam and I think that MAF will give you some issues...

Rick 91GT said:

If compression is 10.5:1+ I.d be looking for 380RWHP+...although I am not a fan of that cam and I think that MAF will give you some issues...

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Could not agree more with the Mass Air issue. That tubing crap is BS. I dealt with it first hand.

Id say depending on compression ratio and what fuel you will be running around 350 rwhp give or take obviously depending on compression.

some people run them some people dont. give problems tuning or are inaccurate. i think they create lean spots in the a/f mapping. not sure tho. neways with everything working together id expect 350rwhp

93gt331 said:

What exactly are you guys talking about the MAF giving me problems? What do yall recommend?

Thanks

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The C&L meters are garbage.

Besides for your setup it's way undersized.

Get a PMAS meter.

Why, exactly, are C&L meters garbage?

They use the same sensor as the stock Ford unit, which is the gold standard for tuning injector slopes, breakpoints, etc.

The truth is that the OP should take the money for the PMAS and go buy a Quarterhorse so he can tune for his combo.

Then if he wanted, he could stick the Ford sensor in a PVC pipe and make his own MAF meter if he wanted that would be extremely accurate.

Good luck...

phutch11 said:

Why, exactly, are C&L meters garbage?

They use the same sensor as the stock Ford unit, which is the gold standard for tuning injector slopes, breakpoints, etc.

The truth is that the OP should take the money for the PMAS and go buy a Quarterhorse so he can tune for his combo.

Then if he wanted, he could stick the Ford sensor in a PVC pipe and make his own MAF meter if he wanted that would be extremely accurate.

Good luck...

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It's not the electronics that are the issue, it's the one size fits all sampling tube that causes the problem. It tries to trick the computer, and does not do a good job of it.

Making your own meter? Not unless you have a flow bench for doing meters.
Phutch, i'll try to put this delicately not to offend you, but please refrain from suggesting that people build their own meters. It's a really bad idea.

The quarter horse setup? That's a sure fire way to complicate a very simple situation, and you know what? You will still need to buy the better meter.

To the OP, get the PMAS 95mm meter calibrated for you injectors.
I bet it easily out performs the c&l.

Why anyone comes up with these crazy ideas of circumventing buying a proper meter i'll never know.
Good engine setups cost thousands of dollars (and sometimes tens of thousands of dollars), why risk massive amounts of damage to save $300 bucks?

93gt331 said:

What about the throttle body is it big enough?

Thanks

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70 should be fine, i wouldn't put a bigger one on the priority list.

2000XP8,

The quarterhorse is an emulator for the eec. You use it to tune your computer, which should have been obvious in the prior post.

From your question, it is clear you know nothing about tuning the eec, how it works, why sampling tubes are good or bad, and why all "calibrated" MAFs are really bandaids.

No matter whether you have a C&L, PMAS, LMAF, Summit, or any other non stock MAF you need to tune your EEC for its specific transfer function for optimal WOT and daily driving conditions.

The point in my example with the PVC MAF is the the sensor electronics are ALL that matters. The rest is an aluminum or plastic tube, and marketing hype.

OP- Spend a few minutes at eectuning DOT org and consider spending that money for the PMAS on a QH.

Good luck...

phutch11 said:

2000XP8,

The quarterhorse is an emulator for the eec. You use it to tune your computer, which should have been obvious in the prior post.

From your question, it is clear you know nothing about tuning the eec, how it works, why sampling tubes are good or bad, and why all "calibrated" MAFs are really bandaids.

No matter whether you have a C&L, PMAS, LMAF, Summit, or any other non stock MAF you need to tune your EEC for its specific transfer function for optimal WOT and daily driving conditions.

The point in my example with the PVC MAF is the the sensor electronics are ALL that matters. The rest is an aluminum or plastic tube, and marketing hype.

OP- Spend a few minutes at eectuning DOT org and consider spending that money for the PMAS on a QH.

Good luck...

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I know what the quarterhorse is.

Honestly, you are clueless.
You do know what a mass air meter does right?
It's extremely important that it meters the air accurately so you get the right amount of fuel.

A meter and sensor needs to be flowed and calibrated together. You can't just simply strap the stock sensor to a big piece of plastic pipe and call it a day.

Tuning equipment instead of a proper meter, are you serious? He would do like every other backyard mechanic without a dyno does, make his car worse.
Even if he did have the QH, what exactly is that going to do for him? His still have an undersized meter with no flow sheet.


Do a search there have been dozens of make your own mass air meter threads. They all land up at the same conclusion, it's a bad idea.
Besides at $300 for a professionally calibrated flowed meter and sensor, why would you?
You can make well over 600rwhp on the stock computer with a pmas meter with perfect driveability.

Your solutions are so overly complex. Keep it simple.

2000xp8 said:

I know what the quarterhorse is.

Honestly, you are clueless.
You do know what a mass air meter does right?
It's extremely important that it meters the air accurately so you get the right amount of fuel.

A meter and sensor needs to be flowed and calibrated together. You can't just simply strap the stock sensor to a big piece of plastic pipe and call it a day.

Tuning equipment instead of a proper meter, are you serious? He would do like every other backyard mechanic without a dyno does, make his car worse.



Do a search there have been dozens of make your own mass air meter threads. They all land up at the same conclusion, it's a bad idea.
Besides at $300 for a professionally calibrated flowed meter and sensor, why would you?

Your solutions are so overly complex. Keep it simple.

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Correct!

If you think you're going to be able to a reliable mass air transfer function in your garage with some PVC pipe, a drill and a hack saw, you're sadly mistaken.

Will the Quarter Horse allow this type of adaptation? Sure it will. ["IF"] you have an accurate meter transfer function table for the Quarter Horse to interpret. That will require (at minimum) the use of the flow bench 2000 mentioned above.

Other problems associated with this kind of fabrication are the turbulance problems created in even a straight cut tube. These problems are also the inhearant weakness in meter that use sample tubes. Pipe X is Y milimeters in diameter and produces Z voltage resistance at XX airflow. Now let's sidline the whole process by stuffing a tube in there and say that, that's going to be an accurate representation of of what the meter 'would' read if the dimater were XX1 instead of XX and also assume that tube is going to scale correctly with both resistance and airflow.

Yeah... thanks but no thanks.

Then ontop of all of that... lets take a novice and toss him/her into the mix with a Quarter Horse and presume that the correct tune will be self-evident.

Ummm... yikes???

Might as well just pull all your hair out now. It'll save time.

Honestly, you are clueless.
You do know what a mass air meter does right?
It's extremely important that it meters the air accurately so you get the right amount of fuel.

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Clueless? I am a mechanical engineer with a specailization in hybrid powertrain design, and I've worked for one of the big three. I have a printed copy of the GUFB strategy document that I keep on the back of the *****er and read for fun. I am hardly clueless about what a MAF is and does.

You can't just simply strap the stock sensor to a big piece of plastic pipe and call it a day.

Tuning equipment instead of a proper meter, are you serious?

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Nowhere am I advocating that the OP make his own meter; I am saying that it can be done - and it can. You will note, again, that my point is that the sensor package is what is important, not the body of the meter.

Even if he did have the QH, what exactly is that going to do for him?

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If I were him I'd adjust the scalar for the correct size of the engine. Next would be to adjust the scalars for the emissions equipment he's probably removed. Then I'd adjust the slopes and breakpoints of the injectors to match what he's got in the eninge. Next, I'd lower the cranking pulsewidths for the injectors. MAF transfer would be next. Finally, I'd tweak the WOT table for spark and fuel to get the last little bit of power out of it. All of that will get him an engine that starts easy, has stock driveability, makes more power, and gets better mileage than he gets now. That's exactly what he'd get.

His still have an undersized meter with no flow sheet.

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I agree that the meter is undersized. He got a flow sheet with his meter and if he's lost it, a flow sheet is a call away from C&L.

perfect driveability

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Let me guess, your car has "perfect" driveability, right? Except for when it's a little hard to start on cold mornings or after you've been driving it a while. Or when the idle surges a little bit, or when you feel that little flat spot in your power at WOT. If that is what you want in your car, fine; but it doesn't have to be that way.

If you think you're going to be able to a reliable mass air transfer function in your garage with some PVC pipe, a drill and a hack saw, you're sadly mistaken.

Will the Quarter Horse allow this type of adaptation? Sure it will. ["IF"] you have an accurate meter transfer function table for the Quarter Horse to interpret. That will require (at minimum) the use of the flow bench 2000 mentioned above.

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I would beg to disagree on this. Have I ever tried, no - but I think it would be doable. Have you?

Other problems associated with this kind of fabrication are the turbulance problems created in even a straight cut tube. These problems are also the inhearant weakness in meter that use sample tubes. Pipe X is Y milimeters in diameter and produces Z voltage resistance at XX airflow. Now let's sidline the whole process by stuffing a tube in there and say that, that's going to be an accurate representation of of what the meter 'would' read if the dimater were XX1 instead of XX and also assume that tube is going to scale correctly with both resistance and airflow.

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I agree completely. I would not run a C&L (or any other "calibrated" MAF) on my car and expect it to perform like stock. Hence my point that the MAF needs to be tuned to it's (as in it's very own) transfer function for OPTIMAL performance. I don't know that you are infering this, but you are wrong if you think that a C&L meter can't be tuned because of the potential turbulence the sample tube creates in front of it. With the technology the QH and BE/EA have you can easily isolate individual load/speed points and adjust the MAF curve to be accurate at that point - all without a dyno.

You do leave out a bigger point which is that any "calibrated" MAF, not just those with sample tubes, fools the computer by sending a signal that represents a mass flow different from what is actual. And that because that mass flow is different from actual, the computer will NEVER get its caluculations for load correct. This will cause driveability issues at part throttle and other states. You further leave out the fact that having a calibrated MAF in no way changes what the computer does during cranking - this is entirely based on the cranking pulse width table and is NOT affected by the MAF. This will cause hard starting.

lets take a novice and toss him/her into the mix with a Quarter Horse and presume that the correct tune will be self-evident.

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It's really not that hard. Is there a learning curve, yes. But there is great support and truly anyone can pick it up.

Good luck...