351C 2V should I?

[Hack]

I was just going through some classifieds, and saw an ad for a 351C 2V from a 75 Torino. The ad is terse, it says "runs, smokes".

I have a '70 vert currently with a 250 I6 and C4. I eventually want to go manual tranny 5 or 6 speed maybe. My car is quite rough, and I need to do the unibody work before doing anything with the motor.

However, this ad is like candy for me, I'm really tempted to buy the thing and store it until I'm ready to use it. The guy wants $75. I would expect to buy it, spay a bunch of fogging oil in it and let it sit. Then I would tear it apart and do a rebuild before using it.

Do the modern manual trannies mate up to a 351C, or is that an expensive proposition? Is the 75 Torino 351C crappy, good, or does the year matter? In the past I was considering transplanting a modern FI 302 from a Mustang or full sized Ford. I'm thinking that my transmission/aftermarket add-on options become easier doing it that way. The 351C just would be really cool imo.

Please give me your opinions. Thanks.

 

[351LX]

They quit making 351c's in 1974.Unless it has been swapped in it is probably a 351m or maybe even a 351w.

 

[hungrymonkey]

I picked up a standard bore (needs .020 over) D1 351c block last year for $10.

It was bare, no crank or heads. you might be able to talk the guy down a bit. Since it has the less desirable open chamber heads, and needs a rebuild.

unfortunantly some people think the blocks were cast gold. most running clevelands I have seen lately are around $500.

 

[Ronstang]

To heck with the Cleveland.....good engine in it's time but technology has outpaced it, these days the Windsor is the way to go with all the aftermarket heads available it can be made to make tons of reliable horsepower. Cleveland aftermarket parts are not as plentiful and the choices are limited and in the end you will spend more money for no gain. My buddy has a 93 coupe I built him with a 351 Windsor with Victor heads and a good cam that runs 11.4s, and it is a budget engine by our standards.

 

[hungrymonkey]

the cleveland Vs windsor debate has been beaten to death in the past.

both have thier positives, but a cleveland is not that much more to rebuild than a windsor. you could rebuild a cleveland for the price of aluminum heads...

 

[D.Hearne]

the cleveland Vs windsor debate has been beaten to death in the past.

both have thier positives, but a cleveland is not that much more to rebuild than a windsor. you could rebuild a cleveland for the price of aluminum heads...

I second that motion, someone who runs down a Cleveland has most likely never had one. And I added up the cost of the parts to rebuild a Cleveland and a Windsor in the Summit Catalog and the Cleveland was slightly cheaper. But with the Cleveland, you don't HAVE to buy aftermarket heads to make the power. The only thing that a Cleveland comes in as more expensive than a Windsor is head work because of the compound valve angles.

 

[TBP]

I second that motion, someone who runs down a Cleveland has most likely never had one. And I added up the cost of the parts to rebuild a Cleveland and a Windsor in the Summit Catalog and the Cleveland was slightly cheaper. But with the Cleveland, you don't HAVE to buy aftermarket heads to make the power. The only thing that a Cleveland comes in as more expensive than a Windsor is head work because of the compound valve angles.

I will third that. And add anyone who puts down a Cleveland has probably been beaten by one.

And I will agree that people tend to overprice the blocks. It's the heads that have value, not really the block. Granted it's a better deal to get the whole package.

I still haven't figured out what to do with mine when I pull it out to put my big block in. I was kind of thinking about picking up a mid to late 80's fox body and dropping the cleveland in that. Could be a fun little project, but I don't know if the wife will tolerate another toy or not.

 

[Hack]

They quit making 351c's in 1974.Unless it has been swapped in it is probably a 351m or maybe even a 351w.

Thanks for the replies, I might just buy it. If I go to look at it, how can I tell for sure that it's a Cleveland? I might even buy it if it turns out to be a Windsor, I guess. $75 doesn't seem like a bad price to me, especially if I can see it run now. I don't want a 351m though, do I?

I think these motors are starting to become a little rare, and $75 seems pretty cheap to me. My goal for the car is just to have a fun and reliable streeter. The fun part means it should have decent power to it, at least as good as a newer 302, if I can do that and keep the reliability.

Oh, and I can't think of any possible way to tell if the thing has been overbored and rebuilt in the past without tearing it apart. Anything you guys can think of? Aftermarket gaskets?

 

[hungrymonkey]

the only true way to check the block is through a machine shop, magnaflux and mic'd.

I would look at the freeze plugs, and if he will let you the engine internals. $75 would be a decent price. Core's for 302,351w. are going for around $100 around here.

I cant remember the differences between the 351m and 351c. DHearn could tell you, but its a couple to few cups of coffee for me to think today.

I lost a filling last night and was up past 4 rubbing my tongue over it.

 

[Hack]

thanks for the feedback, hungry. Sorry to hear about your tooth. I hope you can get it fixed soon. What would I want to see for the internals? Pull the pan and look for chips? Sorry, I'm new to this stuff. I've never bought a motor from a private party before, and I'd prefer not to regret it.

I found info on the differences between 351w and c, so I'm ok there, but 351m I'm still worried about.

351C 8 valve cover bolts
351W 6
351C round intake/exhaust ports
351W rectangular
351C exhaust manifold mounting surface 45 degrees parallel to block and intake mounting.
351W exhaust manifold mounting surface is vertical
351C thermostat housing vertical bolts
351W horizontal

 

[hungrymonkey]

look for metal chunks, clotted dirty oil, any unusual appearing wear, coolant in the oil.

and something that always indicates a really amatuer rebuild is gobs of RTV.

the motor should turn over easily without the plugs in, and If the guy allows then pull the main caps off and look at the bearings. The can tell you allot about the motor.

Personally, I would rather buy a motor that has been disassembled and magnafluxed rather than a motor thats together and running.

75 bucks is not a bad price. consider it a core, and rebuild it.

 

[mach1one]

a tremec 3650 will bolt up and can handle the power, depending on which clutch you use.

The C vs W debate has been beaten to death like hungrymonkey said. If he has a cheap clv block, he should get it and build it up. If he had a cheap wins block he should build it up. But at least w/ the 351c he can buy the block, work the heads, buy a decently big cam, headers, good intake/carb and be pushing 300 to the wheels. And have those sexy big heads to show off when he pops the hood

You might want to consider 4v or aussie 2v heads from an earlier year. The 75's are gonna have huge CC's. Mustang monthly or someone else did a 5 engine shoutout this month, 2 were 351c.

 

[Ronstang]

I agree the Cleveland is a great engine, and it is fine if mild performance is your goal, but if you are going for the big serious numbers then that is when I would prefer a Windsor. I have built both and in mildly modified form I agree the Cleveland is the way to go if you aren't going for serious RWHP numbers like most of the people I know.

 

[hungrymonkey]

the only thing that bugs me about the price of the cleveland parts are the bearings.

its like $80 or more for a set. sbf bearings are a little over $20. I still need to buy pistons and bearings to get mine running. I have been half tempted to buy aussie heads a couple of times, but I think I will wait a few years. since I have two blocks. I might do a cleveland based stroker with Aussie heads. until then, I will just run the stock rotating assembly with flat tops.

I have a write up in a engine book that says I can get 400 fwhp with the later open chamber heads, flat tops, and decent cam.

I should probably just get the sucker on the road.

 

[D.Hearne]

easiest way to tell an "M" from a Cleveland is to look at the bellhousing bolt pattern, the "M" will have a bigblock pattern. Also the motor mount pattern is different from the small blocks. Or better yet get Monkey to give you the width measurement from one of his Cleveland intakes I'd do it, but I'm in my jammies right now

 

[Hack]

Thanks for the additional feedback, I spent last night digging through old 351C threads. Yes, there are a ton!

In one thread it said the bolt patterns 302, 351W, 351C are all the same for trans and motor mounting. That would be great if true. Then I just need a trans that can handle the power. I would think I could use a T5 for a while if I'm gentle enough, but I have a lot of time to figure that out.

The advice I read was get port/polish, screw in studs, roller rockers, stainless valves and a 3 angle valve job. I would probably keep the engine pretty mild, although a loping idle would be fun.

Oh and I learned that 351C heads have either a 2 or a 4 cast into them to denote 2V or 4V. 351M heads don't. Also, 351M has a different tranny mounting pattern, so I think I can use those two items to make sure this engine really is a 351C, along with the things I posted above.

I get my pickup out of the shop later today, I think I'm ready to call this guy and see if he still has it.

 

[Hack]

easiest way to tell an "M" from a Cleveland is to look at the bellhousing bolt pattern, the "M" will have a bigblock pattern. Also the motor mount pattern is different from the small blocks. Or better yet get Monkey to give you the width measurement from one of his Cleveland intakes I'd do it, but I'm in my jammies right now

Thanks, I heard that the top two trans mounting locations are different, but I wish I knew how much different.

The 351M intake is 10.7" across, from what I've read. 351C I don't know.

 

[RogerC62]

I doubt it's a cleveland but I'd go ahead and pick it up even if it's a windsor motor but not if it's an M, it would still be a good starting point.

I agree the Cleveland is a great engine, and it is fine if mild performance is your goal, but if you are going for the big serious numbers then that is when I would prefer a Windsor. I have built both and in mildly modified form I agree the Cleveland is the way to go if you aren't going for serious RWHP numbers like most of the people I know.

I was building potent clevelands back in high school in the late 70s. Clevelands make some serious power. Haven't built one in awhile but I'm thinking of pulling mine for a complete build.

 

[hungrymonkey]

dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. I can go out to the garage and give you pictures of a 302, 351w, and 351c.

give me a couple of hour to get my kid to school and upload the pics from the camera.

 

[Hack]

dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. I can go out to the garage and give you pictures of a 302, 351w, and 351c.

give me a couple of hour to get my kid to school and upload the pics from the camera.

Wow, just go out to the garage! Nice to have your garage. <-- see how green that face is? I think it's envy (pretty sure in fact).

Anyway, that would be really great! Could you please check two other things for me?

1. Measure the width of the 351C intake manifold.

2. Measure (this might be really hard to see, not sure) the distance between the top two transmission mounting points on any of them? From what I've read I understand that they will all be the same. I've tried to find info on the trans mounting pattern, and can't.

Between one or both of those two things, I should be positive that I either have a cleveland or a Modified. I just want to be really sure not to buy a 351M

Thanks,