351c or 351w?

[1973mach1]

Im looking to buy an engine now and seen 2 options that I can do, get a 351c or a 351w. Both around the same HP.

Cleveland pro's.
The car was a Cleveland equipped car.
I have the mounts of altenator, PS pump etc.
coolness factor

cons:
Cost more
The guy told me they dont last as long.


Windsor pro's
Appears cheaper for the same power.

Cons
I dont have the brackets and stuff for the engine like I do the Cleveland.

I was looking at having a 351c built with 4v CC heads, solid lift cam and adjustable valve train. I have the brackets for it, valve covers, oil pan allready. What do you guys think? Both would be in the 450HP range. Will a 351w drop right in a 351c car?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[bnickel]

a windsor will drop right in place of a cleveland, with the exception of brackets as you have already mentioned. dollar for dollar a windsor will be cheaper for the same amount of hp, but a lot can be done to the cleveland. i would first look at getting a set australian cleveland heads, they have 2v style ports and 4v style closed combustion chambers, you get better compression and still have the low-end of the 2v ports. www.powerheads.com has about the best prices for aussie heads. a good hyd roller cam conversion and a decent set of headers will get you close to where you want to be in terms of power, you could also go with a stroker kit for a 408 cleveland and make awesome power and still look like a stock 351-2v if you wanted. dodgestang and 7dmach1 both have nice 408 cleveland setups and opentracker and a couple of other guys have some nice stock stroke cleveland combos as well. i say build the cleveland i think you'll be happier especially if you go with the 408 stroker.

 

[67GTCOUPE]

Windsor all the way.

Surprisingly, the windsor makes more power than the clevland in a recent mag I have....that is two versions of the clevland.

Anyway....windsor has parts you can get anywhere.

I am very happy I sold my clevland and went with a windsor!

 

[Hack]

Well, only you can answer what's most important for yourself.

I am putting a Cleveland in my 70 vert. I'm not even looking for a lot of power right now, though I know it's a great choice for making a lot of power.

I just think it's really sexy.

Windsor is common and plain jane to me. I don't want aluminum heads, because I'm not interested in tearing the thing apart all the time to fix leaky gaskets, or doing some trick special machining so they won't crap out on me. I also like the idea of not spending an extra $1,000 or more on heads.

And the thing I've heard several times around here about Clevelands being forbidden from certain races because they're too good? Even 2V Clevelands? That's just too much! I love that!

Oh and the oiling "problem" at over 7 grand? How many stock engines rev over 7 grand? Non ricey engines, I'm talking here. But it's easy to fix... I dig that too.

Mostly all the talk and so on about the Cleveland and its rarity are pretty darn cool IMO.

 

[SadbutTrue]

well, normally i'd say go with a windsor, since i have one and love it. but in a 73 that originally came with a 351c, I'd go ahead and get a C.

 

[1973mach1]

Thanks guys. One more thing, I have a 351c engine complete and a set of bare 351c 4v heads, if i bring them the block, rods, crank, and the 4v heads and supply the timing set, valve covers, intake, how much should i expect to pay for the machine work and everything else like cam and adjustable valve train, engine rebuild kit, and all that stuff. I see most 450HP cleveland engines allready built sell for about 3k so im guessing if i supply the heads, block, crank, and rods I should expect to pay about 2k? Could anyone give me an estimate on what would be too much to pay so I dont get ripped of? say 500 for the rebuilt kit, 500 for cam and adjustable valve train, 200 for stainless valves, and 800 for machine work and assembly, sound fare?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[dodgestang]

Thanks guys. One more thing, I have a 351c engine complete and a set of bare 351c 4v heads, if i bring them the block, rods, crank, and the 4v heads and supply the timing set, valve covers, intake, how much should i expect to pay for the machine work and everything else like cam and adjustable valve train, engine rebuild kit, and all that stuff. I see most 450HP cleveland engines allready built sell for about 3k so im guessing if i supply the heads, block, crank, and rods I should expect to pay about 2k? Could anyone give me an estimate on what would be too much to pay so I dont get ripped of? say 500 for the rebuilt kit, 500 for cam and adjustable valve train, 200 for stainless valves, and 800 for machine work and assembly, sound fare?

Thanks,
Jim

You should have included the fact that you owned this stuff in the first post. In the c vs w debate, it is always cheaper to build what you already own.

 

[ddonaca351]

....... oh God, not this thread. AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(now kicking the everloving $*%t out of a very dead horse.

DD

 

[1973mach1]

....... oh God, not this thread. AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(now kicking the everloving $*%t out of a very dead horse.

DD

Sorry I've read the other post, but im not wondering whats the better overall engine, just whats the cheaper engine/performance build to get me to 450HP.

Jim

 

[allcarfan]

I have some really 'cool' 351C engine parts if you are interested!!

Just PM ME

 

[Mach1steve]

450hp from a Windsor ?

to get 450hp from a Windsor, will require alot of extra work, including headwork or Aluminum heads, maybe even a stroker kit.
Whereas to get that from a 351C-4V, just add stainless steel valves (for insurance), and a Torker intake with a 750 Holley, and a Solid Cam with some high .500 lift numbers and you're there, and you won't have to rev more than 6,500 to get there, if that.
I recommend Cam Research for 351C Camshafts, talk to Scott, they are located in Englewood Colorado. Very knowledgeable Cleveland guy, they specialize in these engines, excellent service.
I just finished off my 351c-4V and it's a rocket.
Those 4V Closed Chamber heads with forged flat top pistons give 11to1 compression, and will usually run no prob with 91-92 octane pump gas. They also looooove to breathe and make GOBS of power ! People pan them because they don't really "come-on" until you hit 3,000rpm's, but if you have a 3.50's rear gears or higher, or a 4 spd tranny with 3.25 gears or higher....... hold onto your hat man !
As far as lasting longer ? I don't beleive there is any difference in longevity, but remember that a 351W has to work a little harder to make the same power as a lightly modified 351C-4V.
Parts some say are more ? The Cam may cost $100 more than a 351W, and the main & rod bearings sets are maybe $20-$30 more....... after that, the same.
If you already have all these Cleveland brackets/parts etc., then I think you've answered your own question.
Just my 2 cents, and some will disagree, but I've done both, and find the stump pulling torque of a 351C is a better bang for the buck........
Mine pulls 275ft lbs of torque at 2,000rpm (at the wheels), and it just goes up from there peaking at 420 ft lbs at 5,000rpm
HP peaks at 460 @ 6,500rpm, though I will only go to 6,000rpnm with engine where it is still 450hp.

Mach1steve
www.muggziperformance.com

 

[TheWolf]

I've always perefered the Windsor because of the reasons already mentioned, but since you already have the Cleveland, I say go with it.

67GTCOUPE, I think I read that article you were talking about. Surprised me actually.

 

[67GTCOUPE]

to get 450hp from a Windsor, will require alot of extra work, including headwork or Aluminum heads, maybe even a stroker kit.
Whereas to get that from a 351C-4V, just add stainless steel valves (for insurance), and a Torker intake with a 750 Holley, and a Solid Cam with some high .500 lift numbers and you're there, and you won't have to rev more than 6,500 to get there, if that.
I recommend Cam Research for 351C Camshafts, talk to Scott, they are located in Englewood Colorado. Very knowledgeable Cleveland guy, they specialize in these engines, excellent service.
I just finished off my 351c-4V and it's a rocket.
Those 4V Closed Chamber heads with forged flat top pistons give 11to1 compression, and will usually run no prob with 91-92 octane pump gas. They also looooove to breathe and make GOBS of power ! People pan them because they don't really "come-on" until you hit 3,000rpm's, but if you have a 3.50's rear gears or higher, or a 4 spd tranny with 3.25 gears or higher....... hold onto your hat man !
As far as lasting longer ? I don't beleive there is any difference in longevity, but remember that a 351W has to work a little harder to make the same power as a lightly modified 351C-4V.
Parts some say are more ? The Cam may cost $100 more than a 351W, and the main & rod bearings sets are maybe $20-$30 more....... after that, the same.
If you already have all these Cleveland brackets/parts etc., then I think you've answered your own question.
Just my 2 cents, and some will disagree, but I've done both, and find the stump pulling torque of a 351C is a better bang for the buck........
Mine pulls 275ft lbs of torque at 2,000rpm (at the wheels), and it just goes up from there peaking at 420 ft lbs at 5,000rpm
HP peaks at 460 @ 6,500rpm, though I will only go to 6,000rpnm with engine where it is still 450hp.

Mach1steve
www.muggziperformance.com

I need to disagree with some of what you say.

Every comparison dyno run I have seen......three seperate ones which compare similar windsor to clevelands......HAS SURPRISINGLY shown the windsor is MORE POWERFUL! Not only in peak horsepower, but it kills the cleveland in torque......in fact the windsor makes unreal torque from 1500rpm! The ones I have see have all been over 300ft/lbs at 1500rpm and go well over 400ft/lbs at peak......never dropping between 1500 and 6000+...these are limited to three comparison dyno runs with three different sets of comparison engines.

Any way, both are good. Windsor is the most overlooked engine ford ever made......and for those who run them.......it is a-ok with us!

 

[KillerKittyCat]

I had a 351W built by a performance machine shop for a 69 Cougar Vert that I had. It cost about $1900. Just short of a roller cam. 10-1 pistons etc. 440 HP and a 7500 redline.

Sears Point (which would not let me do it ) pulled 160 mph before they shut it down. No roll bar/cage etc. They said it would probably have hit 175. Those 2.73 gears are good for some things.

 

[ratio411]

Go Cleveland...
For 2 reasons:

1) The car only came with a C, no W available.
2) You have an engine to build in your possesion.

Dave

 

[1973mach1]

Thanks for the reply's, I think im going to stick with the cleveland for the fact that I allready bought 4v heads and have the block, parts and brackets. I got quoted from a local rebuild shop at 2500-3k dollars to build my engine with adjustable valve train/solid cam. It seems alittle steep to me considering im supplying the complete block, crank, heads, and piston rods. I guess i'll try somewere else. To rebuild my engine to stock was $1800. What do you guys think of these prices? IM thinking more in the 2200 dollar range for parts and labor for the way I want it built.


Thanks,
Jim

 

[bnickel]

what kind of machine work is included at that price? for that much i would expect a full port and polich on the heads, zero decking the block, broing and honing with torque plates, align bore/hone the mains also with the torque plates installed, radius grinding and cross drilling the crank, assembly and blueprinting the entire assembly as well as balancing the rotating assembly with a new balancer and flywheel and shotpeening the rods and polishing the beams, as well as all the hard parts and gaskets. after all those are near crate motor prices and you are supplying a complete engine to start with. but that's just my opinion, maybe that's why i always build my own.

 

[1973mach1]

what kind of machine work is included at that price? for that much i would expect a full port and polich on the heads, zero decking the block, broing and honing with torque plates, align bore/hone the mains also with the torque plates installed, radius grinding and cross drilling the crank, assembly and blueprinting the entire assembly as well as balancing the rotating assembly with a new balancer and flywheel and shotpeening the rods and polishing the beams, as well as all the hard parts and gaskets. after all those are near crate motor prices and you are supplying a complete engine to start with. but that's just my opinion, maybe that's why i always build my own.

Thanks, I thought that seemed high, i've seen complete 351c engines on the net making 450HP for around that price and less in most cases. And that includes the block and heads, and crank and everything else. Even the 1800 for a stock rebuild seems extremly high. I dont even think stock rebuilt engines on the net sell for that. I guess i'll call a few more shops tommorow. Anyone know any good machine shops that dont kill you on prices in the Philly PA region?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[SadbutTrue]

if you own the C, especially with 4v heads, it will be considerably cheaper than to buy a W. Keep the C and build it, end of discussion there.