4.10 not worth it!!!

[blackfang]

I agree, the sim may not show times that the car would actual run but the time difference between the gears is real. I never said 4.10s werent slower just not worth $600-$750 on a stock car that will never hit the track.

Look at my data- 4.10 on street tires doesnt do much but add DR's and a great driver and u will get your .2-.4 tents off your quarter.

If 4.10 would take a stock car from a 14 to 13.6 on street tires then Ill shut up and retract all my data.

There are people that have ran their GT's to 12's with just 4.30's, a DR, shifter, o/r midpipe and SFC's. Your data is so flawed it's not even funny. You refuse to listen and learn from people like us that go to the track and see this day in and day out. Not to mention alot more experience doing it.

Pro:
Alot in the seat of the pants departmant
Less strain on the motor
With Drag radials ETs improve

Con:
$600-700
Doesnt seem to be worth it for street useage
RPM is way to high

Also better mpg as you are using 4th and 5th more and dont need to use the lower gears as much. The engine is revving a little more but nothing that is to worry about. Hell these engines make power to 6k and you will be using 5th gear around 1500-2000 rpm city driving. BTW most gear installs gor from 175-200 for labor.

So everyone seem to want to prove me wrong. Were are the time slips at???
How about some 3.27 vs 4.10 time slips?

Ok now you can shut up.

Here is a question on MD to Bill Putnam.
http://askbill.modulardepot.com/view.php?viewid=91

And again from Bill Putnam's site of his car(widely known and well respected in the modular community) who used to race the FFW circuit he went from 3.27's to 4.10's(look below as you can verify the mods)


September 29, 2000. Best of 13.46 @ 99.63 with a 1.90 60 foot.
Mods: Rear Seat Delete, Race Seats, K&N, MAC Off road H pipe and Two Chamber Flowmasters, Removed front sway bar, Pulleys, Nitto DR's, Weld Pro Stars.


January 10, 2001. 4.10 gears were installed as well. Best ET with current set up was a 13.19 @ 103.86 with a 1.82 60 foot time.
Mods: Rear Seat Delete, Race Seats, K&N, MAC Offroad H pipe and Two Chamber Flowmasters, Removed front sway bar, Steeda Pulleys, Nitto DR's, Weld Pro Stars, FRPP 4.10's.

Try and argue with that!!!

How about you take you butt to the track and see for yourself. Too many people with the experience have told you, you are wrong and you still refuse to learn.

 

[03ghoststang]

saying that the rpm's are too high it's like saying my exhaust is too loud all i can say is do what ever floats your boat

 

[Spreadman]

4.10's ARE worth it.

I don't think you will find one USER of 4.10's to say otherwise. If anything, they will say they wished they had gone 4.30's. All the 4.10 haters are people who "had a friend who hated them" or continue to crunch math thinking the perfect answer lies on a piece of paper. My top speed increased with 4.10's. With 3.27's, when you hit 5th, it's like a parachute.

Grow some marbles, and get some 4.10's.

 

[jimfitzgerald]

Using the logic that 4.10's are not worth it, you could use the same logic to say 8 cylinders are too much. A 6 cylinder Mustang must be faster because you will get less wheel spin.

 

[Mike97gt]

this new test is even flawed. way to much wheelspin. right at the top of the images it says tire traction very low. no way a stock hp 4.10 car would spin 10.5 inch drag radials like that.

for one you have the drivetrain effcency set at 97 percent. no car is 97 percent efficent. maybe 85 percent you will have at least a 15 percent drivetrain loss.

thats just one problem with this "test" another is the low traction for the tires. on dr's they should be hooking up right away.

and the street tires in your test spin way to much. I HAVE A STOCK 4.10 car i know what it can and can not do. ( i dont consider a drop in K+n and flows to add much if anything)

on a normal 60-70 degree day on worn out kuhmos ( summer onlys) i just have to feather it some i can floor it 15 feet out of the hole tops. spins a tiny bit into second and does a good hard chirp into third.

the only time my car acts like the one in your test on street tires is in 20 degree salty new england roads in febuary. yeah then i don't hook at all in first, thing will still hook mid way thru second.

 

[Mike97gt]

Using the logic that 4.10's are not worth it, you could use the same logic to say 8 cylinders are too much. A 6 cylinder Mustang must be faster because you will get less wheel spin.

no jim your wrong. teh 4 cyl foxes own all 2.3 fox = teh win

 

[Barrier]

for one you have the drivetrain effcency set at 97 percent. no car is 97 percent efficent.

Nothing short of a Ford GT at least...

 

[03ghoststang]

no jim your wrong. teh 4 cyl foxes own all 2.3 fox = teh win

the 4cyl fox 2.3 turbo SVO =

 

[Mike97gt]

the 4cyl fox 2.3 turbo SVO =

no not those they spin the wheels so they are slow.

a 2.3 N/A fox with 1.10 rear gears = teh win


ok back on tpoic.

i really think he needs to change the traction in that sim and change the drivtrain loss.

 

[03ghoststang]

no not those they spin the wheels so they are slow.

a 2.3 N/A fox with 1.10 rear gears = teh win


ok back on tpoic.

i really think he needs to change the traction in that sim and change the drivtrain loss.

yup cause he is using a 3% DT loss and in real life its 15%, wow that is alot of wheel spin and with DR's come on they should be hooking up right away street tires understandable only for 1st gear though

 

[helty]

Side note: Was that tb/plenum really worth it Helt? I'm thinking on it but I can't quite decide.

I think it was, but only if you have a mid-pipe and cat-back/weld-ins, and plan to keep modding down the road. ie, F/I, cams, etc. I noticed a slight difference in pull, and the exhaust note was slightly deeper. But, the track times dont lie. Remember though, some of that was getting better at driving. I'd say the TB/Plenum was worth about .1-.15.

 

[csledd]

the best statement I have ever read about gears..

Gears mulitply your engine's torque to get the car up to speed easier. Without gears to mulitply the engines torque, you will never be able to get your car to take off from a stoplight. Gears are numbered as a ratio, for example 3.27:1. This means that the drive gear (pinion gear) must rotate 3.27 times for the driven gear (ring gear) to rotate once. Let's look at some math to better illustrate this. A stock Mustang GT weighs in at about 3500lbs, its engine has a horsepower rating of 225hp and a torque rating of say 300 lb./ft of torque. Without gears your engine only making 225hp and 300lb./ft of torque will have to try to move a 3500lb mass. That simply isn't gonna happen. Now lets see what gears can do for us. Your typical Mustang has a first gear ratio of about 3.3:1 (in the 96-up cars.) So by taking it's torque of 300*3.3, you now have 990lb/ft of torque to help your car take off. That's still not enough to make for trouble free take-off's. Now take that number and use rear-end geras of say 3.27:1 to mulitply that onto the wheels you now have 3237lb/ft of torque to accelerate you. While this is a healthy number, its still less than your car weighs. Let's see what happens when we install say 4.30:1 gears to the car with 3.27's 300*3.3*4.30=4257lb/ft of torque! That's over 1000 lb/ft of torque, 1020lb/ft to be exact that will help your car off the line. This means less bogging, and a car that is extremely fun to drive. By this example, you can see the advantage of a numerically higher gear ratio.


I agree with the statement that they won't do much for stock cars.. but for those of us who have changed the power in our powerband and have NO low end power.. how long do you want to be down there? I know that's the main reason I wanted 4.10s

 

[blackfang]

I agree with the statement that they won't do much for stock cars.. but for those of us who have changed the power in our powerband and have NO low end power.. how long do you want to be down there? I know that's the main reason I wanted 4.10s

I am sorry but they are the best bang for the buck and will wake up any car stock or not.

 

[40oz]

anyone who thinks gears won't help a stock car must also think 1st gear is only for modded cars :/

 

[csledd]

I didn't say they won't do anything, I just said they do more for modded cars

 

[Blue70]

this new test is even flawed. way to much wheelspin. right at the top of the images it says tire traction very low. no way a stock hp 4.10 car would spin 10.5 inch drag radials like that.

4.10's were the very first performance mod I did to my car so I can say for sure that this is part of the problem..
I had 315's on the rear, regular Sumitomo (sp?) street tires, not DR's, and if I was rolling AT ALL the tires would not spin in 1st gear.
I know that 10.5 DR's will hook better than the cheap azz street Sumitomos (sp?) I am running, so there is no way in hell that it would spin through 2nd gear

I now have only 3 mods
1st was 4.10's
2nd was a KB 1.7 SC
3rd was a CAI

NOW I have traction problems and can not use full throttle in 1st or 2nd, and even spun through 3rd my first time to the track with this set up

 

[03ghoststang]

specially a FI car with a centri S/C you need to get the S/C spooled quickly to get it where it will make it's power. So a 4.10 gear set up will do the trick in getting it there.

 

[BlackenedSVT]

I think you guys should just leave this at: "to each their own..."

 

[billfisher]

ok, i know everybody was waiting for my opinion.


good sim. if used to pre-test changes it is a good tool. in other words if you are considering shift point changes, launch rpms, gear changes, improved, but narrower rpm band(peaky), etc.

but, like already stated, traction changed to 100%(10" slicks), and a powerband that NEEDS 4.10+ you get the result. that sim is excellent to demonstrate hp gets you there, you don't add hp, you get there the same. after 1st gear 4.10 help none as you shift to 2nd and the ratio is not really better than the 3.27 still in first, and then ther is a short period where the 3.27 is in second where 4.10 has a small advantage then the next shift negates that. ETC ETC ETC.

SO THE LESSON HERE? ANYONE KNOW? GET IT ALL IN FIRST!!!!!

weight transefer, traction and you will get a half car. that's where you will finish. (approx)


EDIT: most run gear because they use a powerglide and they make power at 8000rpm and stall at 5000+ rpm.

second edit: 4.30 - 4.88 for me. don't jerk around. gear it to trap at max rpm's in top gear with an auto.

 

[jimfitzgerald]

I think you guys should just leave this at: "to each their own..."

That's true. However, people who still have stock gears are looking for opinions to help them decide.