4.10 not worth it!!!
- Thread starter Stang2003GT
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03ghoststang
Well-Known Member
man even in my Gran Turismo 4 game on my PS2, i swap gear ratios and it makes a difference and that is a simulation game 
Hmmmmmmmm..ummmmmm hey all you computer haters i understand both sides of this debate But i will have to side with myself on this one. I understand that real life situations are alot diff from a simulated but everyone has to relize that a computer program is based on calculations vs. reallife being based on 1.mother nature 2 every engine and mech moveing part wears diff. its a machine. 3 the human driver who has diff muscle structure, tendon snap/reflex, sight and so on and so on.
I will take the computers calculations over a humans anyday. What the hell do you all think desighned your cars,cut your parts,match your gears perfectly everytime ?? I believe that somepeople have been programed into thinking hey 20yrs ago 410s is what all the racers used so they cant b wrong. Well 20yrs ago we had solid steering colums that smashed your ribs vrs. colapsibal colums with airbags. It was a humans thought but it was the computer that desighed it to the exact second an mm.
This thred is a double edged sord! The way that i see it is this . If you want to run with 373s or 410s and think that you are gaining power then fine, im sure it will give you less mech weight strain on your motor. You will accell threw your rpms faster and it will set you in your seat like no other. If you would like to listen to this guy with his sim and save yourself a few hundred dollars and use it for a bolt on or save for a suppercharger (built and designed by a computer) then go for it .
When it comes to calculations i rely on the computer, when it comes to everyday conditions, when it comes to my money its up to me.
By the way i just hit the 600 mile break in on my 410s, changed my fluid and im out to beat the $h1t out of some stock a$$ stangs hehehehehehehehe. Wish me some luck its not perfect conditions outside ya know....
I will take the computers calculations over a humans anyday. What the hell do you all think desighned your cars,cut your parts,match your gears perfectly everytime ?? I believe that somepeople have been programed into thinking hey 20yrs ago 410s is what all the racers used so they cant b wrong. Well 20yrs ago we had solid steering colums that smashed your ribs vrs. colapsibal colums with airbags. It was a humans thought but it was the computer that desighed it to the exact second an mm.
This thred is a double edged sord! The way that i see it is this . If you want to run with 373s or 410s and think that you are gaining power then fine, im sure it will give you less mech weight strain on your motor. You will accell threw your rpms faster and it will set you in your seat like no other. If you would like to listen to this guy with his sim and save yourself a few hundred dollars and use it for a bolt on or save for a suppercharger (built and designed by a computer) then go for it .
When it comes to calculations i rely on the computer, when it comes to everyday conditions, when it comes to my money its up to me.
By the way i just hit the 600 mile break in on my 410s, changed my fluid and im out to beat the $h1t out of some stock a$$ stangs hehehehehehehehe. Wish me some luck its not perfect conditions outside ya know....
jstreet0204
Active Member
Boestang said:
The problem it not with computer calculations. It is with THIS computer calculation.
total worthless information.Stang2003GT said:!!!Revised Simulator Runs of 3.27 vs 4.10s!!!
Read all information please.
Now I can't simulate every driving condition out there for you. We all drive on roads which are comprized of Asphault or concrete and dragstrips with different levels of traction compound. So I have to simulate data that will work for both people who cruise to hard core drag racers. It is very hard for me to argue anything with so many variable. So I've come together with a driving condition that hopefully will meet everones criteria. Your driving along on new fresh asphault it happend that today is a SAE condtioned day and that means the weather condtions meet an exact spec (which you will see below). This condtion is extremely unlike to happen and I can simulate any condition but i needed to pick a standard. You Stop at a light and the light goes green you give it all you have. So I will run the data for that kind of driving. A quarter mile is to be the simulation.
Spec were pulled from: http://www.mach1registry.com/images/2004mustangs.pdf
Driving conditions:
(SAE standard condtions)
-29.6 MG inchs <- Atmosphere Pressure
-77 Degs F <-Out side air temp
-49 Dew point <- The dew point (Moisture)
-No wind <- NO wind at all
Driver:
Average driver who has been to the track a few times to racer.
-3000 Rpm launch <- The launch rpm.
-5700 Rpm shifts <- Rev 1st to 5700 shift/2ed 5700 shift/3rd 5700 Shift/4th 5700 Shift/5th
-.4 sec shift times <-The time it take for the driver to shift gears
(This is typical, as .2 is like a shiftkit on an auto)
-And rpm matching <- Matching the Engine Rpm to the transmission rpm before releasing the
clutch (Running 100% without lifting is too dangerous to the tranny and
wont be simulated even know It will increase performance)
Engine Infromation:
!!!Engine was now simulated fully on 91 octain on an SAE day!!!
!!!This is a full curve instead of the computer est of the full power curve as before
-Cubic Inches 280.1
-255hp @ 5250 @ fly wheel <-- If I change to STD condtions of 29.92 and 59F 260hp is
avaliable
-299 lbs torque @ 4000 @ fly wheel <-SAE not STD
Clutch Information:
-Diameter: 10.5 Inches
-Force: 1600lbs <-est. (But close)
-Singe metal disk
Transmission:
!!!Corrected data!!!
-With the T-3650 (3.35)(1.99)(1.32)(1)(.68)
-97% eff which is the average effeicny of a manual (Spec sheet)
Rearend:
-LSD (50%)<-- Amount of slip in the rearend
-3.27 and 4.10 gears
Tires:
-8.8 x 24.9 Tires @ 34 lbs (weight) each <-Radial style tire
-80% tractions (This simulates the level of traction on the road 80% = Tire on good asphualt, 95% = Drag strip with good Traction compound)
Car Body information:
!!!Corrected data!!!
-The car weighted 3642lbs = (3347 dry + 96lbs of gas + 200lbs Driver)
-.42 drag coef <- Amount of drag
-57% front weight and 43% rear weight - Weight distribution
-101.3 In wheelbase
-60.1 Inch rear track
-20 Inch center of gravity
-Suspension stiffness of a modern car
Strip Simlation
-Good Asphault
-Distance of 1320 feet
-A 10 inch rollout.
3.27s
4.10s
Keep In mind this is not at a drag strip and the soul purpose is to see the difference in 3.27 vs 4.10s.
blackfang
Founding Member
hmmmm...this thread 
if there were a bunch of harcore racers posting this up, I would give it some credibility, but nope
if there were a bunch of harcore racers posting this up, I would give it some credibility, but nope
jstreet0204 said:
I agree, every mustang that i have owened has had 373s or 410s in them. Nothing like the feeling of haven your stomach compressed into your spine and your spine in the backseat. I made alot of change from my friends pockets in the process
.... I will complain about one thing. I hate replaceing trailing arms so that will be my second mod to the new stang. In real life street races computer sims are crapola GEAR IT AND WIN LEAVE IT AND LOOSE
Smeech
Member
I think you keep having to defend yourself because the title of this thread is implying 4.10s are not worth it.
That sounds like they are not worth it regardless of setup, driver, tires, launch etc.
This reminds me of the old CarTest days...
That sounds like they are not worth it regardless of setup, driver, tires, launch etc.
This reminds me of the old CarTest days...
hotmustang331
Active Member
blackfang said:
Hmm, well Spetember =s HOT and January = COLD . NOT a good comparo.
The ET didnt go down much for the big trap gain and better 60' (trap is due to weather obviously)...im not that impressed.
(Gears ARE worth it...I agree 100%. People just make it sound like "ill put in 4.10s and it will be like adding 30RWHP" . Every little bit helps, so again gears are worth it IMO....or I wouldnt have any haha)
billfisher
Active Member
i always recommend gear, but more than 4.10's. i agree with the 'this ain't exactly right' bunch. use computer sims for general idea of combos. nothing else. i am sure i can manipulate the conditions to get either one to show what i want.
as a programmer i look for 'holes' in the logic of every program i use. it is just fun to manipulate ouput.
edit: match the gearing to your combo. that is the way. kenny dutweiler used less gear than N/A for his 160mph trap buicks. torque.
like i said 4.10 wins. the better the gear matches powerband the faster. but faster none the less. i really have yet to see anyone slower at the track after putting 4.10+ on their car. never.
as a programmer i look for 'holes' in the logic of every program i use. it is just fun to manipulate ouput.
edit: match the gearing to your combo. that is the way. kenny dutweiler used less gear than N/A for his 160mph trap buicks. torque.
like i said 4.10 wins. the better the gear matches powerband the faster. but faster none the less. i really have yet to see anyone slower at the track after putting 4.10+ on their car. never.
jstreet0204
Active Member
I think the problem with The sim is it tries to use too many unknown variables. If you break it down to only the effect of gears, this is what you have.
Here are the facts.
1) gears through the entire driveline multiply torque.
2) the higher (numerically) the final drive ratio is, the quicker the engine will rev through its effective rpm range.
Here is a graph I put together that shows the final drive ratio through all gears going from 0 to 100 mph. This is with a t45, shifting at 5900 rpm. The green line represents 4.10 gears, and the red line represents 3.27's
The higher the final drive ratio, the quicker the car will accelerate. Notice that the 4.10 car remains higher until about 82mph where the 3.27 car is still in third, then it is almost identical. Keep in mind though, this graph is not time based, and by the time the 3.27 car has reached 82mph, the 4.10 car has accelerated past that point.
So given only the effects of the rearend gears, the car with 4.10's will win. Now if you can not control the traction, or if you granny shift then its a different story. BTW, the .4 seconds for a shift that was entered into the sim seems extremely long. The 3-4 shift could easily be done in .2 seconds, so if you changed the data to match that it would have taken 2 tenths off the time right there.
Here are the facts.
1) gears through the entire driveline multiply torque.
2) the higher (numerically) the final drive ratio is, the quicker the engine will rev through its effective rpm range.
Here is a graph I put together that shows the final drive ratio through all gears going from 0 to 100 mph. This is with a t45, shifting at 5900 rpm. The green line represents 4.10 gears, and the red line represents 3.27's
The higher the final drive ratio, the quicker the car will accelerate. Notice that the 4.10 car remains higher until about 82mph where the 3.27 car is still in third, then it is almost identical. Keep in mind though, this graph is not time based, and by the time the 3.27 car has reached 82mph, the 4.10 car has accelerated past that point.
So given only the effects of the rearend gears, the car with 4.10's will win. Now if you can not control the traction, or if you granny shift then its a different story. BTW, the .4 seconds for a shift that was entered into the sim seems extremely long. The 3-4 shift could easily be done in .2 seconds, so if you changed the data to match that it would have taken 2 tenths off the time right there.
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hotdog71
Member
Interesting simulation,
However like ALL computer simulation it a mathmitical calulation based on given input.
The best way to build a really good simulator would be to use "REAL DATA" build up over a period of time to build a table and create an algorithem that could give more realistice output. A very good example of this might be a weather forcasting computer simulators, look at how accurate they are today compared to 10 yrs ago.
60ft time for 4.10
70 F deg @ 1.80
70 F deg @ 1.85
ect..
50 F deg @ 2..10
60 ft time for 3.27
70 F deg @ 1.96
70 F deg @ 2.10
ect..
50 F deg @ 2.20
If you have a table based on real data least you can give a better estimation of the real output for that variable.
or
Maybe what you should be looking at is making the 60ft time as an input value. Let say I want to know what my 1/4 time will be if I can hook up a 1.75 60ft instead of 1.95s 60ft.
just trying to help keep it real.
However like ALL computer simulation it a mathmitical calulation based on given input.
The best way to build a really good simulator would be to use "REAL DATA" build up over a period of time to build a table and create an algorithem that could give more realistice output. A very good example of this might be a weather forcasting computer simulators, look at how accurate they are today compared to 10 yrs ago.
60ft time for 4.10
70 F deg @ 1.80
70 F deg @ 1.85
ect..
50 F deg @ 2..10
60 ft time for 3.27
70 F deg @ 1.96
70 F deg @ 2.10
ect..
50 F deg @ 2.20
If you have a table based on real data least you can give a better estimation of the real output for that variable.
or
Maybe what you should be looking at is making the 60ft time as an input value. Let say I want to know what my 1/4 time will be if I can hook up a 1.75 60ft instead of 1.95s 60ft.
just trying to help keep it real.
BooWFO
New Member
Man what a bash.
Ok me and friend have very simliar cars. Her's has stock gears mine 4.10's both on stock goodyears, both same tire pressure, in this config. I trap at least 2 tenths quicker than her. It is all in the 60' mine is quicker giving me the advantage at the end of the track.
Now on the street from a slow roll I OWN it, from a higher speed roll it is dead even, from a highway speed roll I'm dog food, she can access a lower gear giving her the adavantage for a 30 sec sprint. YES we have done it a few times.
Now in the normal everyday driving where it's pass the semi 4.10's work better but for flat out HAULING nope they run outta steam.
And while several seem to take issue with the original posters data I must say it seems fairly acurate to me. To them the tenth or 2 may not be that big an issue.
Now throw some STICKY tires into the equation and the times will drop quickly and 4.10's will squash the 3.27's.
But really to anyone unsure find someone with the gear ratio you are thinking of and go for a ride, a quick blast through the gears and some freeway cruising and make the decision then.
Ok me and friend have very simliar cars. Her's has stock gears mine 4.10's both on stock goodyears, both same tire pressure, in this config. I trap at least 2 tenths quicker than her. It is all in the 60' mine is quicker giving me the advantage at the end of the track.
Now on the street from a slow roll I OWN it, from a higher speed roll it is dead even, from a highway speed roll I'm dog food, she can access a lower gear giving her the adavantage for a 30 sec sprint. YES we have done it a few times.
Now in the normal everyday driving where it's pass the semi 4.10's work better but for flat out HAULING nope they run outta steam.
And while several seem to take issue with the original posters data I must say it seems fairly acurate to me. To them the tenth or 2 may not be that big an issue.
Now throw some STICKY tires into the equation and the times will drop quickly and 4.10's will squash the 3.27's.
But really to anyone unsure find someone with the gear ratio you are thinking of and go for a ride, a quick blast through the gears and some freeway cruising and make the decision then.
reddrgn01gt
New Member
I read most of this thread and really it makes no sense to me. Here is the thing. Why would you get gears like 4.10s and not put a stickier than stock tire on it? Of course they are only going to make you faster if you can hook up, but the point is they DO make you faster if you hook up. If you just look at the 2v shoot out they did in mm&ff almost all if not all of the guys were running 4.30s. I plan on getting sticky tires and at some point and sfc and lcas so i am really not worried about it with the power i will be making.
Only one thing keeps 4.10s on my future list of mods and thats the fact that it will pin you in your seat and thats all I realy care about. It really doesnt matter I cant afford 4.10 for atleast a years.
Every where I go they want 350 dollars to install gears and most places (even speed shops and ford dealers) seem to me to be very shady. Only person I trust is myself and I dont have the time or tools to install em.
350(Install)+185(Gears)+100(Install Kit)+30(RylPurp+Frictionmod) = $665
Not happing soon.
Every where I go they want 350 dollars to install gears and most places (even speed shops and ford dealers) seem to me to be very shady. Only person I trust is myself and I dont have the time or tools to install em.
350(Install)+185(Gears)+100(Install Kit)+30(RylPurp+Frictionmod) = $665
Not happing soon.
all you need is the 30 dollar install kit. the 100 dollar install kit includes wheel bearins you don't need and a gasket that will make your rear end leak if the mating surface is not 100 percent clean.
i just had to do a rear end a month or so ago that another shop did a 4.10 install and used that stupid gasket, and all the fluid poured right out. i redid it with new 4.10's and all new bearings and RTV seal on the cover just like the factory.
i just had to do a rear end a month or so ago that another shop did a 4.10 install and used that stupid gasket, and all the fluid poured right out. i redid it with new 4.10's and all new bearings and RTV seal on the cover just like the factory.
Outlaw97GT
Member
billfisher
Active Member
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