400HP 2V N/A....Going back to my roots....

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Maybe,,,,maybe not....but for those that remember me back in the day they said 350 NA on an auto wasn't possible...and hit that....running mid 11s on a daily driver NA was fun.. I talked to my old tuner... Pro-Dyno and he told me he had a couple 2v's hit 400 and 1 around 418 I believe...with mid 11 compression and strokers....I tested multiple intake and exhaust combos and he tuned all my setups so I know what works and doesnt so I know what the 4.6 2v is capable of....it seems 12.5 to 1 compression and dyno tune will run on pump gas 93 safely.... considering where my previous CR was at and cam profile it could have made between 380 to 390 on stock bore and stroke .if i went with a flat top piston....just not many people have tried...to see at 2v put down 500hp na on a stock bore with longer stroke, custom can, victor jr manifold and complete build was impressive...and that was at the tires....bigger bore and stroke with around 11.7 to 1 cr will get 400hp with correct cam through my auto.....
I will share as this gets built as I already talked to a few of the engine builder gurus out there and noted this is already achieved but no one really posted dyno graphs...... yes I am probably talking to myself at this point but I love to share and help others out...I have a ton of knowledge and experience with the 2v so it is just getting the right set up and little details...
 
So found out something interesting...been watching the MHS videos on cam timing....back in the day....and even on my current setup ...I have been running PI Cams on my TFS heads.... according to MHS the PI cam event timing will be off....you need specific valve exhaust events for a TFS specific cam....as the PI cams are not designed to work properly with the TFS heads....could be off as much as 10 degrees on exhaust for example...I remember pro dyno trying to tune out low and mid range events for fuel trims and timing as something was always off...I degreed the cams on intake centerline but never checked the exhaust side...interesting....plus with my ported TFS heads I think on stock bore now with higher lift and 12.1 on pump gas could hit 380 to 385 based on proper alignment and correct valve events to match set up...
 
Thinking with the 5.3l an average of 35 to 40 HP/Tq gold be gained in top of that...the math states 3 to 4% HP gain from each point of compression....with drivetrain loss of 15 to 18% through an auto....490 crank hp will be needed to hit 400 to tires...with correct under drive pulleys, aluminum driveshaft, and 9in 4k stall which I have, and 410s could put the car closer to 12 to 13% drive train loss with less rotational mass...would take around 460 to 465 crank hp yo hot 400 to tires...
 
My 11.1 1 cr setup hit 355hp so the engine hp was between 408 to 418 for 15 to 18 percent drive train loss or 401 to 408 at crank with 13 to 15percent drive train loss.....with 4% bump for 1cr on current set up would put 369.2 to tires...and correct with correct cams with higher lift I estimate 10 to 15 hp more....this is online with most video tests I found on the 4.6l...so with a 12.5 to 1 cr and correct everything on stock bore and stoke 385 to 390ish would peg out with PI intake...I did see a corboratted victor jr hit 408 on stock bore and stoke with dedicated build to tires but did not like the curves for a street strip setup....in my opinion a 5 speed at race setup only would work with that combo
 
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Now factor in the 5.3l....correct cams, 12.1 cr, + 35 to 40ph over stock bore and stoke...410 to 420 hp to tires is possible with PI intake...or 460 to 490 hp crank hp..... it all comes down to compression, proper cams and timing, and having supporting parts to reduce drivetrain loss....just my thoughts and goals in the coming months...
 
Soo update on my build/rebuild....

I have been trying to source a Boss Modular 5.0 block but it seems they have been backordered and won't be available until Mar-April time frame.... I ordered a new electric water pump, new brake calipers for front and rear, new interior and trunk carpet, new seat rail extenders, and will order new seats and MHS Stage 4 cams with degree service, along with timing chains and supporting rebuild mods....

When I get the new block sourced and start the build it will be with -9.75cc dished pistons which with a 44cc head, 3.701 Bore, and 3.750 stroke the compression should come out around 11.87 to 1 static.... This will be 93 octane friendly.... I will have my heads disassembled, cleaned, check the valves and valve springs and replace if needed and then focus on upgrading the fuel system.... replacing 30lbs injectors for 42lbs, upgrading to dual pump set up and upgrade fuel lines and rails ...

I have some parts getting custom painted again and just focusing on a total clean up and rebuild.... Adding in some bling this time under the hood but keeping the outside looking pretty much like stock with the exception of rims and smoked head lights ..... Still pulling the Driver Side Feder wells apart while cleaning and painting and then dropping the under carriage ..... I have a local shop that specializes in tranny work so I will get my stall converter refreshed for new innards for the 4000 stall, get my rotors turned and then start putting things back together..... I figure I will have all the clean up work done by new years and then start putting things back together....

I will keep my forged Teskid block for another project at a later date as I have a shell car I am looking to possibly start on in a year or so ....

I will update with pics periodically for any of you whom are interested...

Ed
 
So I have been working some numbers and learned a ton about head flow, capabilities for HP, and how to figure out numbers.

So here is some universal basic math to help you establish HP capabilities for your heads.

1. You will need head flow numbers..... this is the basic math to show you what the max HP a head is capable of...
My TFS Heads flow a max of 268 at .600 lift and will use this as an example. The exhaust flows 214 at .600 lift .
Next you see what the flow % is of the heads between exhaust and intatke.
214/268 is 79.85%... which is pretty decent. These heads were ported back in 2009 so it was one of the first ported 44cc heads by Fox Lake... I have seen some flowing around 295cfm now and MHS offers better guides/valves and springs so hitting 300 cmf for flow would be achievable.

2. Next take the max intake flow (268 and multiply by .26) 26 is the standard flow metric used to flowbench head as an FYI. This =s 69.68. Next multiple by the number of cylinders. 69.68 x 8 = 557.44. Now multiply 557.44 by the percentage of flow for your heads. For mine that was 557.44 x 79.85%. This = 445.11 HP capability for this head.

Considering I will be using TFS R Heads reworked and flow potentially 300cfm the engine HP can increase drastically.
300cmf x .26 = 78 x8 = 624 x 75% as example = 468 hp...
now think of how to improve the % flow of intake/ exhaust..... say 624x79% = 492hp or let say 82% flow rate.... 624 x 82% = 511.68...

As you can see you can alot more HP with a better % flow rate between intake and exhaust. Race heads and other high end heads flow in the 83-90% ranges as another example for some old school AFR/TFS and other pushrod guys.... thats why the old big blocks could gain 100hp on a different cam or lift only.... Our small blocks have a similar capacity but not many have tried to push the limits. I totally understand why some just put on a power added and be done with it. But knowing you can it 400-500 hp NA on an NA 2v is just about finding the right combo and arming yourself with information.

Now think of another way to increase flow rate... I don't know the math yet but going from a single plane cam to a dual plane cam where the exhaust has a higher lift compared to the intake will increase this percentage as well.

For basic understanding a single plane cam .550 in and .550 exhaust compared to raising the exhaust to .650 and keeping the intake at .550 as an example.
This is another way to increase % flow on your combo as well and is called a dual plane cam. 75% flow is the bare minimum needed to run a single plane cam but understanding how flow impacts HP goals and knowing the flow rate of you heads really helps with part selection and needs. Being able to increase to a dual plane cam to get the exhaust % up to increase your HP goals is a great way to help fine tune your cam and combo needs.

Just wanted to share some more on my findings and what it takes to make 300, 400, 500, or more HP based on Head flow capabilities.

Ed
 
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So since ford racing blocks fir 5.0 boss are now back ordered another year...I am researching other routes....looked into coyote swaps, superchargers, turbos, and still want to ho NA....for a gen 3 coyote swap with transmission and all supporting parts it will be 15 to 19k....that's for mostly new parts and 50k miles or less engine...460 hp and easily modified to get 500 to the tires...I could do a supercharger and low boost and push 550 now with my current combo....but have a radical idea...5.8l 2v...
 
My old set up maxed out at 357hp to the tires....that 1.27hp per cubic in...with the 5.3l considering similar cr and increase of 42 cubic inches at 1.27hp would be 408hp to the tires....

I soured a 5.8l GT500 block and with 351cu at 1.27hp per cubic in it would put down around 440 to 450hp per cubic inch....with right cam profile of course...these blocks will work perfectly and still weigh less than the 2v iron block and just 30lbs more than the 4.6l aluminum block....

Could build a 11.4cr block and with 70 more cubic inches it should add 85 to 100 more HP ...for 9 to 10k for 450 to tires or 520 at the crank or coyote swap for 18k with more potential but way more cost...with the 5.8l GT500 block it would be similar to gen 2 plus....coyote power.....just thinking through ideas...
 
Another thought, ported TFS R heads with .625 lift cams...should push 475-500 at the tires ...add in E85 conversion with 12 to 1 cr.....500hp plus. ..gen 3 coyotes have hit 535 with e85 ab 12 to1 with headders and intake changes...so keep the car 2v architecture or a full swap.....I dont think anyone has tried this before..... would be similar in cost but everything will bolt up to existing hardware...interesting...
 
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LOL. As you can clearly see....NO ONE GIVES A FACK
So found out something interesting...been watching the MHS videos on cam timing....back in the day....and even on my current setup ...I have been running PI Cams on my TFS heads.... according to MHS the PI cam event timing will be off....you need specific valve exhaust events for a TFS specific cam....as the PI cams are not designed to work properly with the TFS heads....could be off as much as 10 degrees on exhaust for example...I remember pro dyno trying to tune out low and mid range events for fuel trims and timing as something was always off...I degreed the cams on intake centerline but never checked the exhaust side...interesting....plus with my ported TFS heads I think on stock bore now with higher lift and 12.1 on pump gas could hit 380 to 385 based on proper alignment and correct valve events to match set up...
Personally, i am loving this thread, , you have great attention to detail. I have just started on my new motor, a 2V NA build, fairly budget based but using DSS flat-tops coyote rods, Ported PI heads, havent decided on cams yet but leaning toward Todd Warren., I have both Accufab plenum and 75mmT/B, and a new BBK 78mm combo plenum/TB to try. Currently running a C&L plenum with 70mm BBK t/b. I also run a 4R70W with 4K stall Precision Industries converter. I know i am giving up some power, but still running BBK shorties. . Nice to see a different approach instead of just slapping on a blower or turbo. Maybe not everyone wants to hear the technical side of building a good combo, but some of us "boomers" still like it. Keep the advice rolling, some of us are listening.
 
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I don't think it's the details that was making him say that maybe the rambling or talking to himself. Everyone loves fine details we're all mustang tuners but he is kind of rambling to himself. It's a bit wierd.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys...Mustangs have always been a passion of mine....the car would be built and tuned by now but do to backlogs on lots of parts...over 15 months now I was just brainstorming ideas...glad some people are following....my rants are just the knowledge I learned over the years and not knowing and applying back in the days...some call it rants...I call it wisdom.....exploring all options at the moment.....N/A was my dream build...but open to all options now....my current combo is built for 1000hp..at least the block and heads.....so exploring all options....money is not the issue....just my desire to build my dream...

ED
 
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So I almost pulled the trigger on the GT500 5.8l block.... was going through a list of parts needed then ran into the intake issue.....PI intake is not a direct bolt on....the have adapter plates but these are back ordered as well.....plus the issue of injector location as adapter plates are just extenders...if they make an adapter plate that mounts the injectors in the same place then this would work....but would still add more runner length which is not ideal.....5.4 truck intake is out of the question.

Ideally, if you could use an adapter plate on the victor Jr intake the added runner length would be perfect...but same concept of mounting injectors in correct location...

I have found 1 build where they cut in half the Victor JR and the welded a cross section in the middle...would allow for way more plenum volume but would have to build a plate to mount to top of intake....or...have a custom plenum made using sheetmetal ....MHS has the victor with sheet metal intake with 95mm tb....but would also need to use plates or cut/fabricate....

If this is the route the custom fabricate option would be the best method to take care and support the add 70 cubic inches.....

Once again...those intakes are listed but backordered....sux..

So other options I have been exploring are superchargers ......did some research and the best options are self contained centri like procharger, Paxton, ect....great top end power...

Main option is the Tork Teck Kit to use any 03/04 style supercharger....this would work best as the KB kit for the 2v has issues with high boost on #5 cylinder....pick that tip up from my tuner...same with some other kits made for 2v roots specific....just the way the manifold bolts up and how the supercharger sits designed to keep under stock hood....the tork tech eliminates that problem but you still need a new hood with that one...

Centri is the best probably for my high stall auto per some engine builders advise depending on boost levels...I would love the low end TQ of a roots though...
 
I am pricing a Gen 3 Coyote swap now...found a company that buys wrecks and sells motor, trans, full wiring systems with Drive shafts, fuel tank ...etc...about 9 to 13k....most are under 20k miles...only thing is trying to wire in the system using stock wiring vs just buying the wiring swap kit....which is more plug and play....so added cost for most parts u dont need....if I went this route I would upgrade cams, intake, header, exhaust, stall converter and switch to E85....this combo could easily put 520 to 550 to the tires

But cost would be between 14 to 19k...would be an awesome lightweight NA setup....

Event to do supercharging properly with the good stuff it would be around 10 to 11k...for stage 2 kit with all bells and whistles, fuel upgrades, tune, ect ..

Building a 5.8l with all my goals would be around 12 to 14k as well...I would go new parts and customize intake ect...but would have a beast of an NA 2v...
 
Hey white03GT...since you are using the PI heads. Try using the VT Stage 2.5 cams...you will maximize with a dual plane cam since the PI heads dont have the best flow rate between exhaust/ intake... they should fit with the flat tops... reach out to cushman motorsports...the are formally vt..
 
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