408ci parts list....what's missing, what's wrong?

deadly97snake · Mar 11, 2004

stang_gt_1994 said:
BTW the MSD Distributor will not work unless you get a full MSD ignition too. The plugins are not the same. You can score a Distributor off a 94-95 Lightning and it is a direct bolt it.

Now when you say "full MSD ignition" does that mean just the igniton itself (MSD Digital 6 ignition, 6AL, etc..) or other componets than just that?

Rick 91GT said:
I'd suggest a 1.875" header at the smallest, and since you must not have to pass emissions go to the AFR225 and a Vic Jr or Super Victor Spyder, I'd go 50#inj and you'll need some type of tuner. The 80mm MAF is actually fine and better reading then a 92mm....

Big Cube motors like big parts.

Does anyone else suggest 1.875" header, AFR 225, 50# injectors. and a 80mm MAF?

stang_gt_1994 · Mar 11, 2004

I think the 50lb injectors aer overkill. I would go with 42's if I were you. The 80mm wil be good also. You could look into some Kooks steo headers, 1 7/8 - 2 inch with 3.5 primaries.

stang_gt_1994 · Mar 11, 2004

deadly97snake said:
Now when you say "full MSD ignition" does that mean just the igniton itself (MSD Digital 6 ignition, 6AL, etc..) or other componets than just that?

Yeah I mean the ignition itself.

Rick 91GT · Mar 11, 2004

The inj size depends on how much power you plan to make.....

I started building a fairly healthy 408 for my D/R combo before I stepped it up even more. I was going to go to use a 55# inj although I also tuned the car with a Speedbrain so I had flexabilty. The stock 94-95 EEC's are touchy with large injectors, you will need some type of tuner.

It all depends on the power you plan to make, a lot of NMRA Pure Street cars (310ci max, NA, 10.5:1 compression) run a 42# and it feeds the 400-450RWHP nicely, I would be shooting for a lot more out of a HEALTHY 408ci motor.

The Kooks headers are a excellent choice, they'll run you around $625 uncoated, about double then your budget list had. Good ceramic will cost you another $260 to coat inside and out.

How much power do you want to make? How much compression do you want? Race Gas or Pump gas? Is a power adder in your future? Do you have to pass emissons?

ponyboy19 · Mar 11, 2004

Deadly97snake.. your combo is very close to what I have being built right now from Bennett Racing. just on a side note the sportman block is on back order and Bennett is offering the dart block for 1100 more right now. Anyways. Heres what I'm doing

Dart block all forged 418 from Bennett 9:1 compression ready for boost
Bennett custom cam (hydrolic roller wild side of street 6800 shift point)
Dart Pro 1 225 cnc'd heads put together by Bennett
Kooks 1 7/8 or 2" headers
Victor Jr intake, ported and converted to EFI ( He said not to use the super spyder on this application)
Pro M 92 mm maf
90 mm throttle body converted to 87-93 wiring.
42 lb injectors (these are more than fine with the lower bsfc of a N/A engine
AJE K member for added clearance
my Viper T56
Mcleod Twin street dual disc clutch and flywheel. Very pricey but will hold 1200 hp and feels like stock. McLeod said 550-600 hp on a single disc will work for a while but will burn out premature. I over killed it in anticipation of the blower. it's an awesome set up.

This is a combination that I have gone over with John at Bennett and with 9:1 compression Bennett is saying upwards of 550-585 fwhp N/A and is capable of 1200 with boost. Would easily go more n/a if I wanted to bump the compression. I wouldn't bother with the 1 3/4 headers.. I'd go atleast 1 7/8 then 3" all the way back. If your going to use a power adder I'd go 2" Kooks. From what I'm learning these motors definetly like things big. I would probably invest in a decent fuel system, lines, rails, and pumps as well.

Definetly give John a call at Bennett.. He will give you real world advice and work with a set up that meets your needs.. And from what I've heard from a Leading Pro 5.0 racer that uses them. they are top notch.

And how ever much cash you figure it's going to take to do it, add a couple grand too it.

deadly97snake · Mar 11, 2004

Rick 91GT said:
How much power do you want to make? How much compression do you want? Race Gas or Pump gas? Is a power adder in your future? Do you have to pass emissons?

I would like to make enough power to get a full weight GT(with A/C and Power Steering) to get into the high 10's. I want the compression to be able to run pump gas. This is just gonna be a lethal street machine. I don't have to pass emissions and I don't see a power adder in the future as long as I can reach the 10's. -Mike

VibrantRedGT · Mar 11, 2004

We have different goals. My goal like yours is with A/C and power everything but high 11's. A power adder is not in my future either. Anyway I think everyone got some good ideas on motor options with this thread.

Rick 91GT · Mar 11, 2004

408ci kit (4340 SCAT crank, 4340 H or I beams, good pistons inverted dome for 10.5:1 comp)
AFR 225's
nice street solid roller cam
TFS-R 351, Victor 351, or the EFI Spyder (Vic Jr)
80-90mm TB
80mm MAF
42# inj
4" intake pipe
1.875" header
3" exhaust

No Problem going 10's on motor...

deadly97snake · Mar 11, 2004

I got this email from this company. Does it sound like a good deal? What kind of questions should I ask about it? I mean a complete turnkey engine that cost $8,500.00. I mean this is what VIB would say "just have to drop it in."

Thanks for looking over our website www.mustangengines.com
Figure for a complete EFI 408W Engine it's going to run about
$8,500.00.
Thanks
Chris
Engine Factory Inc. 1-800-704-5385
Throttle body down to the oil pan. Electronics and Fuel system.

deadly97snake · Mar 11, 2004

Rick 91GT said:
408ci kit (4340 SCAT crank, 4340 H or I beams, good pistons inverted dome for 10.5:1 comp)
AFR 225's
nice street solid roller cam
TFS-R 351, Victor 351, or the EFI Spyder (Vic Jr)
80-90mm TB
80mm MAF
42# inj
4" intake pipe
1.875" header
3" exhaust

No Problem going 10's on motor...

So bacically its my combo with AFR 225's, a solid roller cam and a different exhaust. Not bad. But what will I lose from going from a hydraulic roller cam to a solid one?

VibrantRedGT · Mar 11, 2004

Yea, that one is a drop in turn key.

Rick 91GT · Mar 11, 2004

deadly97snake said:
So bacically its my combo with AFR 225's, a solid roller cam and a different exhaust. Not bad. But what will I lose from going from a hydraulic roller cam to a solid one?

The motor on that site uses a CAST crank Scat 9000 series, they don't name the brand of rods or rockers either, the RPM cylinder heads are too small for a 408, along with the RPm intake they picture. I am always leary of kits that do not name the brand of the part, they name the brand on many of the others why not all, maybe they are knock off parts? I juist like to know exactly what I am getting for my money.

Soild roller will make up to 25-30HP+ over the hydraulic, maybe more... You will hear how they have to be adjusted, but that is old school tech has been a great thing, with the street soild roller you can still use a hardend gear

I could get a Fordged 408 kit from my dealer for around $1600-1700 depending on pistons (Scat 4340 crank, 4340 Hbeams ARP 8740 bolts, Total Seal RIngs, Cevitte or Federal Mogul bearings, Probe or SRP pistons), total machine work on block with balancing $600, TFS chrome moly pushrods $100, billet timing set $90, SCAT SFI flexplate $50, FTI custom cam $325, lifters (linked COMP conversion lifters) $289, gaskets $200, Melling HV oil pump, adjustable pressure model $40, Canton pan kit $260, Powerbond SFI balancer $190, etc...

Joes95GT · Mar 11, 2004

From what I understand, the differences between solid roller and hydraulic roller cams are torque curves. With a hydraulic roller, you are able to run a much more aggressive ramp rate and cam profile. This allows for better cylinder fill, which equals more torque.

I would venture to guess that you would lose nothing by switching to a solid roller cam. Naturally, the motor is going to make tons of torque just because of it's displacement. You aren't going to be at a loss there.

I would ask all the questions you can before buying this motor. What kind of heads? What kind of rotating assembly? What castings? What kind of block? What size injectors, TB, intake manifold?

I'm glad there is someone else on here who isn't afraid to put a big cylinder head on a car. A little more cylinder head won't hurt anyone.

Joe

Rick 91GT · Mar 11, 2004

I like the nasty AFR225's and billet solid roller I have from FTI should do my combo a lot of good..looking for mid 8's @ 160+

deadly97snake · Mar 11, 2004

Rick 91GT said:
408ci kit (4340 SCAT crank, 4340 H or I beams, good pistons inverted dome for 10.5:1 comp)
AFR 225's
nice street solid roller cam
TFS-R 351, Victor 351, or the EFI Spyder (Vic Jr)
80-90mm TB
80mm MAF
42# inj
4" intake pipe
1.875" header
3" exhaust

No Problem going 10's on motor...

With all of this in mind, what kind of fuel system will I need? Will my current choises be enough? What about the stock fuel rails and lines? What about my choises on the 31 spline axes? Will that be enough? BTW guys, you are a BIG help.

Rick 91GT · Mar 11, 2004

Well the stock rails are good up to 500-550HP or so....

I would personally go to an external set-up Aeromotive A1000 or similar pump, filters, lines and aftermarket rails (If you go with a Spyder you get rails with it).

The 255LPH HP pump and T-rex would will support that kind of power but it doesn't hurt to have a larger fuel system, and it is safer. We made a little over 425/465 RWHP/TQ with our blown 93 Cobra with stock rails, lines, 255lp HP and a ATI inline (basically same as a T-rex but the mounting is nicer, JD's carries them) and it never skipped a beat.

31 spline axles will hold, I would go with the Eaton carrier and either c-clip elimin or 9" bearings ends.

deadly97snake · Mar 13, 2004

Rick 91GT said:
408ci kit (4340 SCAT crank, 4340 H or I beams, good pistons inverted dome for 10.5:1 comp)
AFR 225's
nice street solid roller cam
TFS-R 351, Victor 351, or the EFI Spyder (Vic Jr)
80-90mm TB
80mm MAF
42# inj
4" intake pipe
1.875" header
3" exhaust

No Problem going 10's on motor...

How much RWHP will a combo like this make? Do you think it will still be streetable. I would like to build this motor once and not take it apart for at least 100K miles. Is that possible?

ponyboy19 · Mar 13, 2004

deadly97snake said:
How much RWHP will a combo like this make? Do you think it will still be streetable. I would like to build this motor once and not take it apart for at least 100K miles. Is that possible?

I wouldn't use a solid roller. You can easily make over 600 fwhp with that motor, 10.5:1 compression, and a nice agressive custom hydrolic roller, have great street maners, and the longevity to go along with it. If it was more track car than street and you wanted to rev it past 65-6800 then I would go with a solid but not a 100k street motor.

Rick 91GT · Mar 13, 2004

ponyboy19 said:
I wouldn't use a solid roller. You can easily make over 600 fwhp with that motor, 10.5:1 compression, and a nice agressive custom hydrolic roller, have great street maners, and the longevity to go along with it. If it was more track car than street and you wanted to rev it past 65-6800 then I would go with a solid but not a 100k street motor.

I don't see 600FWHP with only 10.5:1.... Solid roller tech has changed a lot of the last few years, you now set them and go, barley ever need adjustment.

If you want hyd go custom, use the $460 linked bar lifter from COMP or Crane and it should yeild nice good results.

I say an honest 500-550FWHP is obtainable with the right cam profile and supporting parts, 100,000 miles...well there are a ton of factors in that.

deadly97snake · Mar 14, 2004

Rick 91GT said:
I say an honest 500-550FWHP is obtainable with the right cam profile and supporting parts, 100,000 miles...well there are a ton of factors in that.

What kind of factors other than driver error?

408ci parts list....what's missing, what's wrong?

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