5.0 vs LS1

Gumby84 · Jun 8, 2009

i have a question. why is it that mostly all the vids on youtube that are 5.0 vs ls1. mostly every ls1 beats us? we can have like HCI and they just have bolt on's and still bet us. i thought ford was know for making smaller engines with more power then ford. last thing is that it seems that the 4.6 crowd doesn't really have that problem espically with the dohc.

revhead347 · Jun 8, 2009

Ah, I think they went on about this for like 6 pages awhile ago. Basically it comes down to an LS1 being a much more modern and also bigger engine. You got to keep in mind a 5.0 is basically a 40+ year old engine design. An LS1 Famarobird puts down at least 309rwhp totally stock with a 6 speed, and a 5.0 puts down 300rwhp with a mid range HCI setup.

Kurt

Adam95GT · Jun 8, 2009

lsx engines are um.... better.... nuff said.... you need HCI to keep up with a stock ls1... The 302 had its time... its come and gone... it was better then the chevy 305...

Venom351R · Jun 9, 2009

The LS1 is a bigger engine then the 302 and a H/C/I 302 is still at a disadvantage to an LS1 engine. They were underrated from Chevy by quite a bit. They put down around 320 to the wheels stock.

95Vert383AOD · Jun 9, 2009

With Advancements in intake and head design by companies like AFR Trickflow Edlbrock has the 5.0 closed the gap a little?

The obvious downside when compared to new engine technology is only having 2 valves per cyl. But then again theres no sound like a good ole 2 valve SBF. A more comparable motor would be the 351. With the right HCI and stroker kit you an make a 351 a 500+ hp beast and thats N/A....Never mind a little nitrous or forced induction!

Its apples to oranges...Those LS1's love picking on lil 302's....They should try picking on 351's

GM LS1 = 5.7
Ford 351 = 5.8
Ford 302 = 4.9 Yes 4.9...5.0 was for marketing purposes!!! Same motor in Crown Vic's and Towncars are labeled "4.9"
Chris

JJ95GTID · Jun 9, 2009

I'd have to agree with the displacement being the biggest immediate advantage.

A Ford 5.4L like that of the 2000 Cobra R would be a better measure against the LS1 5.7L. Both being normally aspirated engines and within a couple years of origin it makes for a better comparison.

That being said a 347ci stroker with better flowing heads/intake and a LS1 is a interesting comparison.

Remember you'll pay more for a LS1 vehicle than a 5.0L vehicle initially.
Take that money you saved and build a stroker SBF and I believe you'll be ahead of the LS1.

Venom351R · Jun 9, 2009

95Vert383AOD said:
With Advancements in intake and head design by companies like AFR Trickflow Edlbrock has the 5.0 closed the gap a little?

It does but the 5.0 is still at a disadvantage when up against a good driver. Im not sure how they are on weight when compared to a 5.0 but when comparing equally matched drivers the 5.0 still needs a little help. Even the LT1's will put a hurt on 5.0's until the mods start to happen

revhead347 · Jun 9, 2009

Never heard of a 302 in Crown Vic being referred to as a 4.9. It's not so much marketing as engine distinguishment. A Ford 300 straight 6 is a 4.9, so they labeled the 302 a 5.0. Keep in mind both of these engines were sold together in the truck lineup for years.

Even a 351 or a 347 stroker is not really a good comparison. You're still going to have to put a lot more cam in an SBF to make the same power as an LS1.

Kurt

95Vert383AOD · Jun 9, 2009

revhead347 said:
Never heard of a 302 in Crown Vic being referred to as a 4.9. It's not so much marketing as engine distinguishment. A Ford 300 straight 6 is a 4.9, so they labeled the 302 a 5.0. Keep in mind both of these engines were sold together in the truck lineup for years.

Even a 351 or a 347 stroker is not really a good comparison. You're still going to have to put a lot more cam in an SBF to make the same power as an LS1.

Kurt

Isn't Grady making like 297RWHP on a 302? His is a pretty streetable build as well from what ive heard. Properly building a 351 (not stroked) would make excellent HP even for a 40+ year old design. LS1 is still pushrod design. Compatibility with the 302 and a huge aftermarket has brought SBF technology to its pinnacle.

The technological benefit of the LS1 is better head design and 48ci more than a 302. Good heads and intake on the similar displaced 351 will yield the same results. As far as weight advantages....The aftermarket has now brought us Aluminum 302/351 blocks.

Its still apples to oranges to compare a 302 to a 350 .....but with HCI on a 351 and a 350 they both start looking like oranges.

BTW a 305 is a 5.0.....Like said before a 305 is no match to a 302 in stock form...but ultimately with good H/C/I they would both be in the same playing field....but thats all controlled by the aftermarket and the 302/351 has one of the best aftermarkets ever.

Chris

maypo59 · Jun 9, 2009

As will be repeated over and over..

LS1 is bigger, newer, with better flow.

period.

The 5.0/302 was not designed, nor intended, to go "against" that motor.

The 302 is what it is. Love it or not.

We (as mustangers) would be in worse shape if GM had actually put that motor in a better car (besides the 'vette). IMHO, the F-body was just not built well. I test drove a Firecrap with the 6 speed and intake/exaust package, had about 1200 miles on it, and honestly it sounded and felt looser then the 10yo GT I was driving at the time, and had to have the body work re-atched once, already. It did however, go like stink. If I could have put up with checking my rear view often to spot falling parts.. I might be on some GM forum right now..lol

instead I am stuck here with the faithful.

95Vert383AOD · Jun 9, 2009

95 Cobra R was a 300hp 351....Comparable to a LT1 GM.

rj95svt · Jun 9, 2009

If larger higher flowing heads and intake are used a 347 or 351 doesn't have to have as much cam as you might think. Combos like this though are much more sensative to valve timing which is why alot of combos seem to lose alot of torque.
*A 348ci LS1 uses IIRC a 205cc intake port head from the factory. The use of larger higher flowing heads allow the use of smaller cam profiles. Most people use 185cc heads on their 347 or 351's to retain torque. The advantage of the LS1 is not as big as one might think but there is still a advantage.

Venom351R · Jun 9, 2009

For comparison sake I have a 351W with H/C/I and put down 333/338. That puts me in the ball park of a LS1 off the show room floor.

revhead347 · Jun 9, 2009

rj95svt said:
If larger higher flowing heads and intake are used a 347 or 351 doesn't have to have as much cam as you might think. Combos like this though are much more sensative to valve timing which is why alot of combos seem to lose alot of torque.
*A 348ci LS1 uses IIRC a 205cc intake port head from the factory. The use of larger higher flowing heads allow the use of smaller cam profiles. Most people use 185cc heads on their 347 or 351's to retain torque. The advantage of the LS1 is not as big as one might think but there is still a advantage.

You can't compare a 205cc Chevy head to a 205cc Ford head. The comparison doesn't reveal anything about runner flow. A 205cc Chevy head may have a smaller cross sectional area than a 185cc Ford head, due to runner length. An LS1 makes more power stock than a Grady's HCI setup. Which was kind of my point. If do just a couple of bolt ons with a stock LS1, there's no way your going to catch up with any HCI combo on that 302. And if you compare the 351 with the LS1, the LS1 is going to make more power with a smaller cam than a 351 mod for mod. You'll also be able to push more compression on pump gas with the LS1 yielding even more power.

Sure the aftermarket has done great things for the SBF. But it's all based on that 40+ year old design. Chevy did the right thing by starting completely from scratch.

Kurt

GT_green_GT · Jun 9, 2009

ive personally taken an ls1 apart. the are extremely well engineered. the factory heads on them alone flow better than any factory head. super tall ports. being aluminum from the factory it has an advantage. the crank is set down in the block.

95Vert383AOD · Jun 9, 2009

revhead347 said:
You can't compare a 205cc Chevy head to a 205cc Ford head. The comparison doesn't reveal anything about runner flow. A 205cc Chevy head may have a smaller cross sectional area than a 185cc Ford head, due to runner length. An LS1 makes more power stock than a Grady's HCI setup. Which was kind of my point. If do just a couple of bolt ons with a stock LS1, there's no way your going to catch up with any HCI combo on that 302. And if you compare the 351 with the LS1, the LS1 is going to make more power with a smaller cam than a 351 mod for mod. You'll also be able to push more compression on pump gas with the LS1 yielding even more power.

Sure the aftermarket has done great things for the SBF. But it's all based on that 40+ year old design. Chevy did the right thing by starting completely from scratch.

Kurt

Bottom line is Out the factory GM put decent heads on their lt1. Ford used the same airflow choking heads on the 351 as they did on the 302. If its not displacement its head design. I have to give it to GM for producing a better head out the factory than Ford. But that doesnt mean i cant bolt on a set of AFR's.

Its the laws of physics!!! nothing more....and those laws of physics don't favor Ford over GM or vise versa!!!!

The advantage of the lt1 isnt in in the block per say.. its in the flow of the heads. I'm sure if you put 1.84intake and 1.54 exhaust valves on the LT1 like ford put on the 351 you would have a pretty doggish motor too. Compared to Ford the stock heads on a LT1 were a performance piece. Ford didn't start drastically improving head design until the production of 4v mod motors.

If you could bolt lt1 heads and intake to a 351 you would make similar power. Personally i like the fact they ford used a 4inch cyl. bore on their engines rather than the 3.75 that came on alot of GM motors.

final5-0 · Jun 9, 2009

Funny how this usually comes up about once a year

I'll just bottom line it
which
Has already been done above

The sbf and LS1 just ain't an apples to apples comparison

Its smaller and based on a design done way back in the early 60's

Yes ... You can move up to a Windsor and the size is the same
but
A Windsor is just an over grown sbf

that means the old school technology is still present in the Windsor

Grady

95Vert383AOD · Jun 9, 2009

final5-0 said:
Funny how this usually comes up about once a year

I'll just bottom line it
which
Has already been done above

The sbf and LS1 just ain't an apples to apples comparison

Its smaller and based on a design done way back in the early 60's

Yes ... You can move up to a Windsor and the size is the same
but
A Windsor is just an over grown sbf

that means the old school technology is still present in the Windsor

Grady

I wish there was a way to bolt 32v mod heads to a 351/302 and put the right sprocket on the crank for the timing chains.

Venom351R · Jun 9, 2009

But the flip side is even with all that old tech in the SBF Push Rod engines they can still make great HP numbers when modded. A 351W stroked to a 408,410,418 with H/C/I will put down some really nasty numbers (providing the right combo is done) and a H/C/I 302 with 10PSI or so of boost will put down really close to or 500RWHP. So the plus side is that it ain't all that bad

final5-0 · Jun 9, 2009

Yes ... it all boils down to .........

Ya wanna do it with a sbf or not

Everybody has their own reasons for wanting to hot rod ... SBF Style

Me ... I grew up in the Muscle Car era

I relive my youth every time I open the hood and see what I think
looks like a hot rod motor sitting between the ... shock ... towers

New technology is great

but

I just ain't interested at this point in time

No matter if it is Chevy and their LS1
or
Ford with their over grown motorcycle power plant they call a Mod Motor

I didn't make my sig for no reason at all

Grady

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