5.0 vs LS1

Pokageek · Jun 9, 2009

"Good heads and intake on the similar displaced 351 will yield the same results. As far as weight advantages....The aftermarket has now brought us Aluminum 302/351 blocks. "

Right. it's not the chevy symbol OR some magical "LT/LS1" motor it's the LS1 -HEADS. Same performance head on a Ford - same performance. No magic to it.

95 Green GT · Jun 10, 2009

lsx engines are just beasts nomatter what they are in. a little 302 is never going to keep up with an ls1 until you get the mods goin.

just go ahead and put a 4v 5.4 in and see if a chevy will keep up.haha

whitesqual · Jun 10, 2009

I like being the underdog! Every dude in his camaro or firebird expects to beat us, and a lot of the time they do, but when you win, it makes it worth it! I feel good doing more with a lot less!

revhead347 · Jun 10, 2009

95Vert383AOD said:
Bottom line is Out the factory GM put decent heads on their lt1. Ford used the same airflow choking heads on the 351 as they did on the 302. If its not displacement its head design. I have to give it to GM for producing a better head out the factory than Ford. But that doesnt mean i cant bolt on a set of AFR's.

Its the laws of physics!!! nothing more....and those laws of physics don't favor Ford over GM or vise versa!!!!

The advantage of the lt1 isnt in in the block per say.. its in the flow of the heads. I'm sure if you put 1.84intake and 1.54 exhaust valves on the LT1 like ford put on the 351 you would have a pretty doggish motor too. Compared to Ford the stock heads on a LT1 were a performance piece. Ford didn't start drastically improving head design until the production of 4v mod motors.

If you could bolt lt1 heads and intake to a 351 you would make similar power. Personally i like the fact they ford used a 4inch cyl. bore on their engines rather than the 3.75 that came on alot of GM motors.

Not sure if wanted a different conversation, because the title says "LS1 vs 302". I would agree that LT1 vs SBF 351 with the same style heads and cam are going to be about the same. The laws of physics do not favor GM, but they do favor some of the desing features of the LS1. The LS1 is going to have an advantage over an SBF for the following reasons. I'll make an easy to read list.

1. LS1 is distributerless, which allowed them to build a more efficient intake design, that more evenly distributes the air to each cylinder. The SBF has longer runners to cylinders 1 and 5 unless you spend big money on a custom intake and a distributerless ignition system.

2. The LS1 has a slightly smaller bore of 3.90" compared to the Ford 4.00" bore. The smaller bore does hurt the power a little, but makes up for it by reducing detonation. It is not a signifigant reduction in bore as in say the 4.6, where the bore is so small the engine loses a lot of power

3. The cylinder heads flow better at wider rpm range. This is not only because of the runner volume, but also because of its design. The very tall ports channel the air quicker at lower rpm, and allow the air flow to come up at higher rpm. A similiar port design has never been made available on a Ford 302. I assume it costs too much money to relocate everything else to match it. This is not as signifigant as say the bore difference, but it does add up to a few hp across the power band.

4. The LS1 has a much more spherical combustion chamber design. This is huge in keeping the detonation down. The modular motor has a very similiar combustion chamber design, which is why those motors perform so well under heavy boost. SBF heads are almost all wedge design. With a wedge head, you have to run less compression and you can't advance the spark as much.

I would say, mod for mod you are going to see at least 40 more hp with the LS1 vs say a 347. Of course, with the money you saved buying a 15 year old Mustang, you are going to be able to buy more mods.

Kurt

302GTS · Jun 10, 2009

I love my 5.0, but when it comes down to it, the LSx motors are just incredible works of art. They put a lot of power down, but it's all in what you want. I love my nice low end torque from my 5.0, and the fact that the aftermarket for them is like staring into space practically! However I must say, I did look into LT1 Camaros before finding my 95 GTS... But still, I ended up with the 5.0 haha.

99FiveOh · Jun 10, 2009

revhead347 said:
Of course, with the money you saved buying a 15 year old Mustang, you are going to be able to buy more mods.

Kurt

I agreed with everything in your post except for the above. A buddy of mine just picket up a super clean 80K mile 99 Z28 with the LS1 motor in it for 4200.00.

So Anymore, I think you get a better value if you go the Famarobird route. For comparison, a super clean 80K mile 95 GT or Cobra with TONS less power will probably cost about the same or MORE than the much newer Camaro.

Now, don't even start to take this as me being a GM fan, I've worked in auto repair shops and had to do tires and oil changes on quite a few Camaros and Fireturds. The "magic" that everyone keeps referring to is ONLY under the hood and that's it! The fit and finish of these cars is that of a late 80's Grand Am!!

So my point is, if performance is what you're after and you have no make preference or need for a better "well rounded" car, then Government Motors FTW.

BlackVert · Jun 10, 2009

i know some people think that putting a chevy motor in a ford is sacriligious, but if the LSX is that much better a motor, then there might be a reason to do it. not that i am the one to try it or anything, i'm just thinking out loud ...

has anyone put a LSx motor in a stang? having to doing the electronics too probably makes it a bigger job than doing the 351 conversion

Pokageek · Jun 10, 2009

BlackVert said:
i know some people think that putting a chevy motor in a ford is sacriligious, but if the LSX is that much better a motor, then there might be a reason to do it. not that i am the one to try it or anything, i'm just thinking out loud ...

has anyone put a LSx motor in a stang? having to doing the electronics too probably makes it a bigger job than doing the 351 conversion

I don't support this mindset at all that u are speaking of - putting a Government Motors engine in a Ford. In terms of HP, get a better set of heads or bigger cam and/or distributorless ignition if you think it makes that much of a difference. Sorry, I am just not impressed with the ls1 just because of the build heads they put on it. I was more impressed with the LT1 with its better low end TQ and high HP potential.

fastgtfairlane · Jun 10, 2009

All gm products are going for dirt cheap because the government is taking over their operations. they will have no resale value. you can sell the lsx engine for more than the entire car. you wanna talk about an impressive engine, look at toyotas 5.7 in the tundra and sequoia. 381hp and 401 ft lbs. thats from the same cubic inches as the lsx. has anyone driven a 5.7 tundra? the single cab 2wd 5.7 runs high 13s stock.

revhead347 · Jun 10, 2009

BlackVert said:
has anyone put a LSx motor in a stang? having to doing the electronics too probably makes it a bigger job than doing the 351 conversion

Lots of people have. There is a guy back in Daytona who did it. I think it's going to become a more popular mod in the future. For the first 7 or so years the LS1 was in production aftermarket parts were so expensive, nobody wanted them. You had to pay like $2400 for a set of ported 5.3 heads. Now the prices have come down on all that stuff, so more people are going to mod them.

Kurt

Pokageek · Jun 10, 2009

fastgtfairlane said:
All gm products are going for dirt cheap because the government is taking over their operations. they will have no resale value. you can sell the lsx engine for more than the entire car. you wanna talk about an impressive engine, look at toyotas 5.7 in the tundra and sequoia. 381hp and 401 ft lbs. thats from the same cubic inches as the lsx. has anyone driven a 5.7 tundra? the single cab 2wd 5.7 runs high 13s stock.

I was thinking the same thing. Those engines kick some butt! They are nearly cobra s/c range lol. Far beats the LS1.

Zero Signal · Jun 10, 2009

You guys are so fixated on the motor. You can match HP/TQ numbers all day, but you still won't keep up until you ditch the 4-link rear end.

rj95svt · Jun 10, 2009

revhead347 said:
You can't compare a 205cc Chevy head to a 205cc Ford head. The comparison doesn't reveal anything about runner flow. A 205cc Chevy head may have a smaller cross sectional area than a 185cc Ford head, due to runner length. An LS1 makes more power stock than a Grady's HCI setup. Which was kind of my point. If do just a couple of bolt ons with a stock LS1, there's no way your going to catch up with any HCI combo on that 302. And if you compare the 351 with the LS1, the LS1 is going to make more power with a smaller cam than a 351 mod for mod. You'll also be able to push more compression on pump gas with the LS1 yielding even more power.

Sure the aftermarket has done great things for the SBF. But it's all based on that 40+ year old design. Chevy did the right thing by starting completely from scratch.

Kurt

This is true on the heads the overall design of the ls1 heads is better. The 15 degree valve angle, smaller lighter valvetrain shape of the ports, The valve placement is all better than the SBF. Alot of the things can be made better using newwer technology but some cannot due to limitations like the distributor and other things. My point is that the advantage of the LS1 is not as big as some think it is. The LS1 is still a a better overall design based on modern tech and is capable of more overall hp with a little better driveability. I do not believe that the cam will have to be that much bigger if a larger sized head, intake, and exhaust is selected. Overall we agree on most points.

The O.G. · Jun 10, 2009

Those ls1 cars are just plain ugly.Fast but they dont do it for me.
Vette not included.

revhead347 · Jun 11, 2009

The O.G. said:
Those ls1 cars are just plain ugly.Fast but they dont do it for me.
Vette not included.

No kidding. Everytime I see a Camaro, I can just imagine it jammed under a door holding it open. And I'd love to get a Vette, if I could get the Rogaine squirters and the Viagra pez dispenser optioned out.

Kurt

nmcgrawj · Jun 11, 2009

The O.G. said:
Those ls1 cars are just plain ugly.Fast but they dont do it for me.
Vette not included.

Trans Am WS6 not included also.......i will have a black WS6 one day.

And why are all you guys still talking about the LS1???????????

So you're comparing an engine from the mid 90's to toyota's 2010 engine? Or whenever the hell they brought it out.

I cant even keep up with the LS-series and what makes the difference between the two but i do know that a LS1 is just the base....the LS-series motors are sick.

Ford is not too impressive having to keep up using a blower in my book. And how can u compare a LT1 to a LS-series engine?! You talk about the low end of the LT1 like the LS1 had a low end like a 4.6 ford engine....i've never heard of an LS1 being "soft" down low.

Anything can be built to compete but obviously Ford does not have a production motor to keep up with the LS-series engines without a blower. To some guys thats a plus...to others thats a minus.

Now that we are down to essentially The Big 2 car companies....guys need to drop that damn brand loyalty trash between Ford and GM.....If it sounds good and looks good....then its good with me! I appreciate a guy who can wrench....and getting a LS-series engine in a mustang with fuel injection is a job well done. I got love for both

Interesting note though.......

All you "i bleed ford blue" guys who would never consider a GM motor in a mustang.....

how many GM cars are swapping in 4.6 motors to replace their LS series? Find a late model camaro or trans am with a ford engine.....best "hope" ford has for someone to want to swap the motor in would be the 03/Shelby GT500 DOHC motors.....

Any links? Any projects? Any videos? ANYTHING?

Yet we have whole sites dedicated to swapping in LS-series engines into mustangs.......

Back in 02, LS1 was the thing to worry about. But LS1's are long gone...there is a new breed out. Factory warranty. All motor. Damn impressive.

Might not like the body, but ya gotta respect the motor.

Pokageek · Jun 11, 2009

nmcgrawj said:
Trans Am WS6 not included also.......i will have a black WS6 one day.

And why are all you guys still talking about the LS1???????????

So you're comparing an engine from the mid 90's to toyota's 2010 engine? Or whenever the hell they brought it out.

I cant even keep up with the LS-series and what makes the difference between the two but i do know that a LS1 is just the base....the LS-series motors are sick.

Ford is not too impressive having to keep up using a blower in my book. And how can u compare a LT1 to a LS-series engine?! You talk about the low end of the LT1 like the LS1 had a low end like a 4.6 ford engine....i've never heard of an LS1 being "soft" down low.

Anything can be built to compete but obviously Ford does not have a production motor to keep up with the LS-series engines without a blower. To some guys thats a plus...to others thats a minus.

Now that we are down to essentially The Big 2 car companies....guys need to drop that damn brand loyalty trash between Ford and GM.....If it sounds good and looks good....then...g with fuel injection is a job well done. I got love for both

......or.

Dude are you on speed? Anywho. Check your specs on the LT1 low end vs Ls1 and get back to us and yes chevy SUCKS and so does the firechicken /transam. Questions?

p.s. LT1 325TQ@2000rpm, ls1 takes to 3200rpm to get there with a whopping 10 more. But who cares anyway. I sure dont.

nmcgrawj · Jun 12, 2009

Pokageek said:
Dude are you on speed? Anywho. Check your specs on the LT1 low end vs Ls1 and get back to us and yes chevy SUCKS and so does the firechicken /transam. Questions?

p.s. LT1 325TQ@2000rpm, ls1 takes to 3200rpm to get there with a whopping 10 more. But who cares anyway. I sure dont.

Speed? Nah....just annoyed by guys who live and die by a brand. My point was that you are dissing the LS1 like its soft like the 4.6 I dont care what the LT1 does at 2,000rpm. The advantages of the LS1 outweigh the minor differences down low. If you arent happy....GEAR IT. What do the 4.6 guys do? **** what do the 4.6 DOHC (mach 1) guys do? And their low end is comparable to the stock LS1. If you live and die bye 0-3,000 rpms then thats you...i could understand if the differences were night and day, but they arent.

Take the ford stick out of your ass. If you cant respect a car company for atleast giving a car the motor it should have from the factory...i dont know what to tell you. How long have Ford guys been beggin for Ford to give us more cubes?

Its funny, cause if the shoes were flipped, and mustangs had the LS1.....

this whole site would be going bananas about the LS1 touched by god. But since most of you are too busy seeing nothing but Blue....u hate on it. Design and the look of a car is purely opinion. But its gonna take a lot of work for a ford car(previous to the 03 cobra era) to compete with a H/C/I LS1 car.

Just for giggles...i did look up some graphs. Seems like the LT1's vary as much as LS1's vary...but anywho....

LT1

Stock LS1 vs. H/C LS1

LS1 with a lid and corsa exhaust

And my damn POINT you also skipped over because you are too damn busy making irrelevant comparisons is look at what the LS1 has grown to be.

COMPLETELY stock LS2 from the 05 GTO

Now feel free to say "those sub 2500rpm torque numbers are soft" but im pretty sure the car is still enjoyable to drive on the street...daily.

Now i looked up dyno graphs.....i compared them. I will give u the point that the LT1 is stronger down low, but its not a night and day difference. Now since i see that, i ask you to do a few things:

1.) Find me LS-series cars (camaros, trans am, vette, GTO, TB SS, etc ANTHING!) that swap the LT1 into their cars to replace the LS1 because of its "soft" low end. I just want 1 example. That doesnt even prove much as u can find an example of anything on the net, but those guys dont do it.

2.) Its stupid to argue about your opinion on looks of a car. Ok. Thats a given. But can you find me ANY car(camaro, trans am, vette, GTO, etc) that swaps Ford motors in? Again i said this earlier and you skipped it. Just find 1 car.

Better yet, go on every GM site and make polls for if people had their choice, regardless of whats available in the aftermarket, who would swap in a Ford Motor? Then go to the LS-series areas and find who would swap in a LT1. THEN go to the LT1 areas and ask how many guys have, or want to, swap in a LS-series engine to replace their LT1.

And you already know the Ford boys have sites, message forums, aftermarket parts dedicated to running the LS-series motors.

And before you get on another clever "comeback" and ask me about another drug i may be on, i will restate that its annoying when guys either:

1) Have too much brand loyalty to even give respect where its due.
2.) Hate on something just because a lot of people love it....there's a reason for its popularity. The success of the LS1 isnt an internet myth!

Any car can be made fast with enough money. The thing all of us need to respect GM for (IMO) is the engine they put in their cars. Yes, blowers are nice....but thats on a what, $45k mustang? Guys to this day are still praying that the GT gets more cubes. How many 351w threads do u see where guys say "ford should have put these in the mustang instead of the 302".

GM does numbers N/A that Ford does with a blower. Thats impressive. GM gives their cars the cubes from the factory...heads that perform so well that a simple cam swap results in huge gains. Ford's plan in the last 25years made the mustang aftermarket what it is, but on a car to car comparison of engines, the GM boys took care of business.

I'll be waiting on those links to guys who want to do those swaps i mentioned earlier...

Pokageek · Jun 12, 2009

Just stating a fact. LT1 puts out more low end than the LS1. Pull up all the internet dyno's you want. But like I said, I really don't care. I am a Ford guy and you are not changing my mind. I don't support putting chevy parts in a Ford.

Yes, you are correct. Peeps aren't replacing LS's with LT's, but hey we are talking about Chevy enthusiasts again so who cares, lol. Mustangs have more class, period.

As to cubes vs blower, thats subjective and opinion/preference as much as my Ford preference. Fact is the cobras blow away the ls1's factory - period and is arguably a much better design and package. As to the drugs, you just seemed a little hyped up on the issue, I didn't mean that literally. But hey, everyone has their hot button. I have seen peeps pull out their internet tool boxes over motor oil. Its clear you are a fan of Chevy and the LS1 in the fact that I apparently rattled you by showing you a spec on the LT1 that is better than the beloved internet LS1. Its basically the heads that make it, no mystery.

p.s. I have no stick or quarrel with you. I have owned the z28 and 2 mustangs and I just like the fords better in terms of sound and quality product. In general I have found drivers of mustangs to have more class, tact, and cooler people. But that is just a generality. And yes that is all opinion.

nmcgrawj · Jun 12, 2009

For ****s and giggles, where your latest dyno sheet? I found this one, was this before long tubes were added?

a 382 LS1 stroker....

382 Lunati Stroker Kit
X1 Cam 112 LSA
Stage 2 Heads w 2.02 1.57 Valves
LS6 Intake
Katech Throttle Body
ASP Pulley
FLP Longtubes w/ cats
B&B PRT Exhaust
Blackwing CAI
LS1 Edit Tuning

RWHP 455 @ 6400 RPMS
RWTQ 440 @ 4800 RPMS

382 Stroker LS1 Dyno Results! - LS1TECH

Now this would be a stock cubic inch motor....

224/229 0.570/0.578 114 LSA cam, degreed to 112 degrees at the intake centerline
205cc AFR heads, 60cc chambers.
0.036" Cometic gaskets for a 0.030" quench.
11.8:1 CR.
Stock bottom end with Katech rod bolts.
1-3/4 LG Longtubes, no cats.
UD pulley.
VaraRam 2b intake.
LS6 intake manifold.
HPTuners, tuned by me.
Stock throttle body.
Stock MAF with stock screen.
C5 Z06 Ti mufflers.
28.8 lb injectors @ 92% DC
LuK Pro Gold clutch with 12lb Fidanza flywheel.
Stock everything else.
All pulls done in 4th gear on stock 3.42s, with 315/30/18 rear tires on a DynoJet 248.

AFR 205s, 224/229, stock LS1 bottom end - LS1TECH

Now that would be a 350 cubic inch motor knocking on the door of your big stroker....yea your bottom end is probably insane. But unless you have actually have it hooking, all that extra torque just equals more tire spin.

Is anyone not impressed by these motors? LOL

5.0 vs LS1

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