5.0 vs LS1

Pokageek · Jun 25, 2009

rock4451 said:
+1. just because i may not like a high-revving screamer doesn't mean the guy who does is a jackass. it just means we're diff. all he's saying.

Yep. I agree with that totally. Oh, and the race thing I'll take as a compliment.

95Vert383AOD · Jun 25, 2009

I have this same debate with my honda loving friend. He seems to feel he can beat my if he hits a million RPM...But truth be told to get to 7K rpm we all most pass 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 , 5000 and 6000RPM first.

So if two cars make 500hp the first engine to get to that sweet spot first wins. NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT. Whats crazy is that well use the no replacement for displacement when referring to 4 cyl....but then when its v8 vs we we come apart and cant agree on anything!!!

More displacement is why a LS1 pushrod LS1 (350) will beat a pushrod (302)....Sure you could rev the 302 to the moon to make the same power as a larger displacement motor...But when that larger motor is built to rev high too theres no comparison!!! Apples to PC comparison. Newer technology may make a few more ponies....but overall the Bigger motor wins.

Pokageek has a 408 based 351...i have a 383 based 351....tuned and built to perfection PHYSICS say that his motor will make more power every time. Sure i can rev. a little higher and make his power. But hes just a cam swap away from making even more power at the same RPM. Size does matter!!! Have you seen what guys with professionally built 514 strokers are making for power??? Not only that but larger displacements can make more power at lower RPMs and still run pump gas!!!

Chris

Chris

rock4451 · Jun 25, 2009

np, it was intended to be a compliment poka.

rock4451 · Jun 25, 2009

I have this same debate with my honda loving friend. He seems to feel he can beat my if he hits a million RPM...But truth be told to get to 7K rpm we all most pass 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 , 5000 and 6000RPM first.

you do? i thought honda sold an rpm delete kit that brings you to 7 grand instantly? haha (that was a bash to honda's and ricer mentality, not to what you're saying)

1slow95 · Jun 25, 2009

HankyGT said:
Nothing can beat the feeling of ripping them back loose from a hooked up roll as the car really starts to pull.

With my street tires (315/35 F1 GS-D3) my car would break loose at the top of 2nd gear around 5800 rpm. Oh yeah, I also make 400rwtq at 3000 rpm.

Stopsign32v · Jun 25, 2009

Pokageek said:
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? We can't simplify the TQ concept anymore for you. If you strap YOUR engine to an auto with the same gearing as another guy with more low end TQ, your car will feel and be slow compared to the other.

My 306 put out more low end than your 331 and even that felt slow. As to your car beating mine that's a whole nother story and you're spitting against the wind kid. I am at least the same rwhp as you and not even getting started compared to your radical mods. But I know a guy with a Honda that will run you if you are interested. Its a track vs street debate and I think we are all saying the same thing. You are just upset because not everyone agrees with your definition. So get over it and move on man. Everyone has their own preference. That's all we are saying.

Can you not read? I understand that you like torque, great. What I don't understand is your definition of a true "test" to see which motor is built better. Take the damn things to the track! Those are real world numbers that matter. Who the hell says a true test is to put both motors behind an automatic and see what happens?

You are truely a clown if you think torque wins races and it is a crying shame you can't meet me at the track. That is all I will say. Someone is lost in 1972.

Pokageek · Jun 25, 2009

Low-5.0 said:
With my street tires (315/35 F1 GS-D3) my car would break loose at the top of 2nd gear around 5800 rpm. Oh yeah, I also make 400rwtq at 3000 rpm.

Yep. AND you are making all that hp alot earlier too Mike. You have the best of both worlds. I basically patterned my car after yours as its a benchmark for hp and looks...dunno if either one of us have the driveability thing down yet lol. Thats prolly in the cam and the tune of course.

Stopsign, I understand your point man. And like I said, your car is great car too and I am sure lots of people would like to have it. We have different preferences is all.

But back to the thread. Yes ,stock LS1 beats stock 5.0 lol.

Stopsign32v · Jun 25, 2009

Low-5.0 said:
With my street tires (315/35 F1 GS-D3) my car would break loose at the top of 2nd gear around 5800 rpm. Oh yeah, I also make 400rwtq at 3000 rpm.

And my car with less torque has sent me sideways completely through 3rd gear with my 315 Nitto Drag radials. Oh yea, I make 300rwtq at 3,000rpms

rock4451 · Jun 25, 2009

jesus it is constant defense mode...i think if he said hp is more important and torque is overrated you would swap sides just to argue...

Stopsign32v · Jun 25, 2009

Like I said before, it is all in the combination!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1slow95 · Jun 25, 2009

Stopsign32v said:
And my car with less torque has sent me sideways completely through 3rd gear with my 315 Nitto Drag radials. Oh yea, I make 300rwtq at 3,000rpms

I can take off from a dead stop in 3rd gear.

Somebody should rename this thread Torque vs. HP.

Gearbanger 101 · Jun 25, 2009

rock4451 said:
jesus it is constant defense mode...i think if he said hp is more important and torque is overrated you would swap sides just to argue...

opcorn:

1slow95 · Jun 25, 2009

revhead347 said:
Somebody already put LS1 heads on a 5.0. I saw pictures on the net of it awhile back. They modified a carbuerated Ford Intake to make it fit. I can't find any of the pics now, but if you do a search you'll find all the forums where people talked about it.

Kurt

Back on topic (sorta)

I found threads discussing this, but the original thread has been moved or deleted and I couldn't find it.

I did find it interesting that many people said the LSx engines are designed more like a Ford engine than a Chevy. One person described it as the best Ford engine ever built (by Chevy).

95Vert383AOD · Jun 25, 2009

Wanna beat a Ford....design an engine like one and add 48 Cubes

revhead347 · Jun 25, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
I think torque and horsepower are only considered meanlingless below 3,000RPM to those who aren't making it. Kind of like when the teacher hands out suckers to the kids in class and she runs out before she gets to the last kid...at which point he starts pouting with the whole "I don't care if you all got suckers...I didn't want one anyway", attitude.

Yeah, I make 630 ft. lbs of torque at the wheels at 3000rpms. I guess low end torque only means something if your car is so slow it can't get up in the rpms fast enough. If you have an engine that makes decent power, the time you spend below 3000rpms is so minimal, the difference in torque is nominal. If launch a car below 3000rpms on a race tire, you're gonna bogg. If you bogg, especially on the bottle, there's a good chance you're going to break something. If you are on street tires, all that low end torque is just going to make smoke clouds. That's why I say torque below 3000rpms is meaningless.

Kurt

Stopsign32v · Jun 25, 2009

revhead347 said:
Yeah, I make 630 ft. lbs of torque at the wheels at 3000rpms. I guess low end torque only means something if your car is so slow it can't get up in the rpms fast enough. If you have an engine that makes decent power, the time you spend below 3000rpms is so minimal, the difference in torque is nominal. If launch a car below 3000rpms on a race tire, you're gonna bogg. If you bogg, especially on the bottle, there's a good chance you're going to break something. If you are on street tires, all that low end torque is just going to make smoke clouds. That's why I say torque below 3000rpms is meaningless.

Kurt

Kurt you are arguing a losing battle. You can't understand what you just said until you have a fast car.

revhead347 · Jun 25, 2009

BlackVert said:
have you people ever heard the statement that ET is a function of torque while trap speed is a function of horsepower?

torque wins races, not horsepower

This is actually totally incorrect. Torque is actually a meaningless number in determining acceleration. The saying Torque = ET, HP = mph is a myth. The myth comes from the fact that cars with higher peak torque numbers generally generate more average power. So a car with 300rwhp and 400rwftlb will remain closer to peak power throughout the rpm band. While a car making 300rwhp, and 200rwftlb doesn't have much power until it approaches that peak rpm. From a mathematical standpoint, power is the only value that is of importance. Power = Work/Time. The Work to move a car of a given weight 1/4 mile doesn't change. By the relation above, you can see how Power is value you have to change in order to change the time.

Also, I'm not saying low end torque is of no importance, just that torque below 3000 rpms is of no importance. Power = torque x rpm. So yeah, just like I said above, having lots of low end torque facilitated by a bad ass big cube motor is important to get that average power value up. But in the real world, just about every race engine stays well above 3000 rpms for the entire race. So why would I care what the torque is at 3000 rpms when I launch at 6000, and the car stays above 4500rpms for the whole race.

Kurt

Black Stampede · Jun 26, 2009

Run what ya brung. That's all there is to it. Street or strip who gives an F what is under your hood or what kind of power you are making at what RPM. Aside from a racing standpoint enjoy whatever sort of combo you and only you like.

Now, opcorn:

Gearbanger 101 · Jun 26, 2009

revhead347 said:
Yeah, I make 630 ft. lbs of torque at the wheels at 3000rpms. I guess low end torque only means something if your car is so slow it can't get up in the rpms fast enough. If you have an engine that makes decent power, the time you spend below 3000rpms is so minimal, the difference in torque is nominal. If launch a car below 3000rpms on a race tire, you're gonna bogg. If you bogg, especially on the bottle, there's a good chance you're going to break something. If you are on street tires, all that low end torque is just going to make smoke clouds. That's why I say torque below 3000rpms is meaningless.

Kurt

Thought we were talking street cars here? You may be alright with the idea of running WOT all the time to see any kind of power out of your car but a lot of us like the idea of being able to summon our torque curve at will....not be RPM, gear or bottle dependant on it. Last time I checked, you couldn't merge onto a drag strip simulating stop and go traffic in high gear, or pass a row of cars without dropping out of overdrive. How does your car feel off the bottle at part throttle, or under gradual acceleration? Betcha it’s no where near as healthy or impressive when you aren't running the sauce with your foot stuffed into the oil pan?

Sure, 630lbs ft of torque at the track on slicks is a great recipe for ET’s. Wheel spin is less of a problem when you’re not shocking the tires at the tree before the majority of your power comes on....I never stated otherwise. But on a street car, making the jam down low makes more a much more pleasant driving vehicle. Yes, if you want to....blowing the tires off at will off idle is certainly doable, but its not inevitable. Controlling the rate at which power comes on is with a Twin Screw or an Eaton is little more than showing a little restraint with your right foot. Far more predictable and controllable than any Centrifugal or Turbo...especially on street tires. Get nervous and jerky and your tires go up is smoke. Use your head and roll it out of the hole and let the torque curve work for you decent standing starts are very accomplishable. Also, it’s not like a PD blower means you make a pile of torque down low and its gone by 3,000RPM either. My torque hits hard and heavy almost instantly If I want it to and continues to carry all the way to red line, just like my horsepower does.

It may not come on as dramatically, or violently as your does at 3,000RPM, but c'mon....you've got your nitrous and displacement to thank mostly for that...not centrifugal blower alone.

Stopsign32v said:
Kurt you are arguing a losing battle. You can't understand what you just said until you have a fast car.

Must you always insist on playing the part of the yappy Chihuahua?

rock4451 · Jun 26, 2009

+100000000 on the last comment...

5.0 vs LS1

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