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Progress Thread '88 Gt Project Blue Storm

  • Thread starter Thread starter Murkstang
  • Start date Start date Apr 1, 2016
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Murkstang

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Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 16, 2016
#41
  • Apr 16, 2016
  • #41
I have a clunking when my car surges. I think I found ze problem.


This picture flips upside down on everything but my phone, but that is the pinky finger.

Can anybody tell me who makes this rear control arm kit? (or whatever you want to call it.) Sadly it's kind of a bad picture.
 

mikestang63

SN Certified Technician
Aug 27, 2012
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Apr 16, 2016
#42
  • Apr 16, 2016
  • #42
Murkstang said:
I have a clunking when my car surges. I think I found ze problem.


This picture flips upside down on everything but my phone, but that is the pinky finger.

Can anybody tell me who makes this rear control arm kit? (or whatever you want to call it.) Sadly it's kind of a bad picture.
Click to expand...

Those look liife old style lift bars. Very hard on the torque boxes. IF you can afford it, I would highly recommend you repalce them with a set of MM lowers.
 
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Murkstang

Active Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 25, 2016
#43
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #43
Welp, bad news. The Holley heads a indeed crap. The valve stem seals are bad, and if you replace them, they will only blow them again. I bet it's why Holley no longer makes them. I changed the oil, and it was obviously very thick. I completed the oil change, and with the new oil, it smokes like crazy! For oil anyways. I got on it, and left a nice fog, nearly killing the driver behind me.


Kidding, nobody was behind me. So, now I need new heads. Trick Flow, AFR, SOMEONE! SPONSOR ME! lol
 
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stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.
15 Year Member
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Apr 25, 2016
#44
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #44
Why would they blow new seals? I've heard great things about the old Holley kit
 

Murkstang

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Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 25, 2016
#45
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #45
I don't know, the stuff I read gave me the impression they are really bad. Several people talking about the valve stem seals going bad.
 

stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.
15 Year Member
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Apr 25, 2016
#46
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #46
I can see the original seals being crap. Even tfs heads had problems with springs. I would have a new set of seals installed before I dropped them in the recycling bucket.
 

Murkstang

Active Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 25, 2016
#47
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #47
Maybe I will. I will do a bit more research, and see if maybe anyone else chimes in with their experiences.
 

stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.
15 Year Member
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Apr 25, 2016
#48
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #48
Accompanying hardware aside, the cast should be just as good as any other head out there.
 

mikestang63

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Apr 25, 2016
#49
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #49
Murkstang said:
Maybe I will. I will do a bit more research, and see if maybe anyone else chimes in with their experiences.
Click to expand...

I know the Holley heads had horrible valve guides and valve angles that caused oil leaks and such, but can't you repair that and install viton seals to correct this, or is the cost to do so prohibitive.


From around 2002?

From - FordMuscle.com:

Holley heads and oil consumption

The Systemax heads we installed back in January (along with an Explorer intake) ran very well out of the box, powering our then AOD '88 LX to a 13.4 @ 102 on puny radials. That was with no other induction changes -stock cam, throttle body and mass air meter. However soon thereafter our motor started consuming oil at the rapid rate. We knew immediately that the problem was with the valve guides in the Systemax heads.

As with Trickflow heads, Holley heads feature valves that are rotated in the chamber to bring them closer to the centerline of the cylinder. (Holley Systemax heads have 17 degree valve angles, stock heads are 20 degrees.)

Poor valve train geometry on the Holley Systemax heads led to the valve guides wearing out in just 10,000 miles. The result was oil consumption at the rate of one quart per 200 miles.
The idea behind this is to unshroud the intake valve, and thus increase airflow into the cylinder. While the concept works, the problem is the twisted valve changes the valve train geometry. The result is the rocker arms place an increased side load on the valve guides because of the reduced distance between the centerline of the valve stem and the centerline of the pedestal/stud mounting boss.

We discussed this problem at length with Brian Tooley of Total Engine Airflow (coincidentally he was an engineer at Holley, working on the Systemax project, before he left to start his own company.) Brian told us that the problem is made especially worse when customer mills the Holley head, or installs it on a decked block, or uses non-stock cam and rockers. All of these modifications require properly checking the valve train geometry to select the correct length pushrod. Brian also pointed out that not all rocker arms are equal, even though they may have the same ratio. His comparison of several different brands of 1.6:1 rocker arms showed they all had different overall lengths (between the centerline of the stud and the roller tip.) This does not mean the rocker arm is more or less than 1.6:1, but that the length of the arm changes the sweep of the roller tip across the valve stem as the valve opens and closes. This affects the amount of load places on the valve guide, and thus it is critical to measure using special valve train geometry tools. What is interesting is that Holley does specify a longer than stock pushrod when installing the Systemax heads on a stock 5.0L engine. Unfortunately even this does not truly correct the problem of accelerated guide wear.

Brian indicated that while it is standard practice to check valve train geometry on a highly modified race engine, it is not realistic to expect consumers to check it for what is supposed to be a "bolt on" stock replacement head. The only real fix for this problem is to re-design the head so that the rocker mounting pad is moved in correlation with the revised valve angles. Brian indicated that Trick Flow had the exact same problem when it first released the pedestal mount version of its Twisted Wedge Head. Ultimately TFS discontinued the pedestal mount head and now offers a stud-mount head with much improved geometry.

Needless to say, ten thousand miles after installing the Systemax heads the motor was burning one quart of oil every 200 miles! We had even converted the '88 to a T5 in this time span, in the hopes of knocking on the 12's with our seemingly strong running combination. However the one and only trip to the track with the Holley head and T5 combo resulted in a 15.2 @ 100 - a dramatic example of how much power is lost due to excessive oil consumption.
Click to expand...
 

Murkstang

Active Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 25, 2016
#50
  • Apr 25, 2016
  • #50
mikestang63 said:
I know the Holley heads had horrible valve guides and valve angles that caused oil leaks and such, but can't you repair that and install viton seals to correct this, or is the cost to do so prohibitive.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, my research after finding the problem is just beginning. I got home and almost immediately posted my new update. I will try to find solutions, and talk to my buddy who works at a machine shop.
 

Murkstang

Active Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 26, 2016
#51
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #51
Please forgive me. lol

It was simply overfilled. I was unaware these were dual sump oil pans. My brothers vert fox was also overfilled in the same manner, I guess. I was wondering why it was so over the full line, even though to my knowledge only had 5 quarts in it. (In reality it had about 8 or 9)

I swear I learn everything the hard way, and I feel like a dumbass, but at least I figured it out.

This is going to be a fun build, guys!
 
Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
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stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.
15 Year Member
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Apr 26, 2016
#52
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #52
Just going to leave this right here.

 
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FoxMustangLvr

I love my Pimp
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Apr 26, 2016
#53
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #53
Murkstang said:
Please forgive me oh great Stangnet, for I have committed great acts of ignorance.

It was simply overfilled. I was unaware these were dual sump oil pans. My brothers vert fox was also overfilled in the same manner, I guess. I was wondering why it was so over the full line, even though to my knowledge only had 5 quarts in it. (In reality it had about 8 or 9)

I swear I learn everything the hard way, and I feel like a dumbass, but at least I figured it out.

This is going to be a fun build, guys!
Click to expand...
Even the dip sticks don't read the oil level correctly sometimes. The full line tends to read full at 4 qts when the capacity is really 5 qts. So people must drain the oil, put in 4 qts, mark that line as 1 qt low, then add the fifth quart and mark that level as the full line.
 

Murkstang

Active Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Apr 26, 2016
#54
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #54
FoxMustangLvr said:
Even the dip sticks don't read the oil level correctly sometimes. The full line tends to read full at 4 qts when the capacity is really 5 qts. So people must drain the oil, put in 4 qts, mark that line as 1 qt low, then add the fifth quart and mark that level as the full line.
Click to expand...

Even still, it was far, far over. Like, 3 or 4 inches over the full line.
 

Boosted92LX

It's only an inch or two. What's the big deal?
15 Year Member
Dec 19, 2010
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Apr 26, 2016
#55
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #55
FoxMustangLvr said:
Even the dip sticks don't read the oil level correctly sometimes. The full line tends to read full at 4 qts when the capacity is really 5 qts. So people must drain the oil, put in 4 qts, mark that line as 1 qt low, then add the fifth quart and mark that level as the full line.
Click to expand...

I know a lot of dipsticks that can't tell where the oil level is...
 

mikestang63

SN Certified Technician
Aug 27, 2012
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Apr 26, 2016
#56
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #56
Isn't this how you add oil to your engine?

 
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Boosted92LX

It's only an inch or two. What's the big deal?
15 Year Member
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#57
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #57
mikestang63 said:
Isn't this how you add oil to your engine?

Click to expand...

Bingo
 

FoxMustangLvr

I love my Pimp
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#58
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #58
mikestang63 said:
Isn't this how you add oil to your engine?

Click to expand...
She can do no wrong in my eyes
 
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A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...
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#59
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #59
Boosted92LX said:
I know a lot of dipsticks that can't tell where the oil level is...
Click to expand...
Sounds like my son...he must think oil changes are an option..not a requirement lol. I asked him if he checked the oil. "Uh no". When did you change it last? "Uh. Sticker came off windshield. I don't remember ". Smh. And he's 23 and watched me do this hundreds of times.

Op I under filled mine the very first time(back in the 80's lol). Like mustangLvr stated it read one quart off. I ended up scribing a new line on mine.
 

Davedacarpainter

Chicks can make things hard if they’re inspired...
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Apr 26, 2016
#60
  • Apr 26, 2016
  • #60
mikestang63 said:
Isn't this how you add oil to your engine?

Click to expand...
Does this girl make house calls?
 
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