89 Coupe - Won't start. Have read threads... still need help!

[ck89coupe]

Ok, I have been reading the threads and still can't get my car to start. Here's the rundown... I have a DSS 306 block, Accell Gen 7 DFI, Trick Flow heads, ProCharger D1B @ 16 lbs of boost, complete Aeromotive fuel system (tank to injectors, and everything between)
130 AMP alternator and alot of other goodies but will keep it to the related topic. Battery is trunk mounted. Battery has clean ground to the frame. All wiring from battery to starter relay, starter relay to starter, and motor to frame rail are the large gauge (1/0) welding cable. My problem is that the motor will turn over good for the first several seconds, then fade to nothing. Will not start. Battery is new, starter relay is new, starter is new as of this past spring. Something is not right at the starter relay. With the key off, I test the battery at 12.8 volts. I tested the positive post of the starter relay to ground at 12.8 volts. When I test across the posts of the starter relay I get 12.8 volts with the key still in the off position. If I remove the small wires that come from the starter to the negative post of the starter relay, then the same test above is what I believe should be correct at 0 volts. When I turn the key at this stage, small starter wires still unhooked from negative relay post, I can hear the starter relay click, or engage. I hook the small wires back to the relay, I have 12.8 volts again across the relay posts, irregardless of key position. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!! At witts end. As a side note. I have just swapped the old 302 block for the new DSS motor. This is my first attempt to fire the new motor. Heads, cam, blower, DFI, injectors were all on my first motor combo. Had to work out the tuning bugs before the new DSS block.
Please help!

 

[Daggar]

Your test across the solenoid don't mean anything. The positive side of the solenoid should always be hot and by running a meter to the other post you're running voltage from the hot side to ground. Might as well test voltage across the battery terminals. You jump those two posts with a heavy guage wire you'll activate the starter. I don't think your problem lies with the solenoid. something else is amiss.

 

[DropTopR]

Did you happen to check for good engine grounds? Had a buddy not hook any up, and the car did the same kinda thing. Hooked up a big ole ground wire and tada! Magic!

 

[87TTopGT]

Just posted this in another thread- (on Corral though)
Words of wisdom from one who knows FAR more than I.....

Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

1.) Remove push on connector from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on. Place car in neutral or Park. Remove coil wire from distributor & and hold 3/8” away from engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Coil
B.) TFI module
C.) PIP sensor in distributor
D.) ECC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
E.) Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
F.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire.
G.) Computer

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.
Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. See http://www.mustangworks.com/article...c-iv_codes.html for a description of the test connector. If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In pinch you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have.

No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay
F.) Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove vacuum line from regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while pump is running.

Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.

A.) A Noid light available from Autozone, is one way to test the injector wiring.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.

a.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
b.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
c.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the ECC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.


4.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.

A.) Failed IAB (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently).
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
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[TorontoJohn]

why do you not just jump the sylonoid to see if that is the problem? Just touch the power cord to that "out/starter" side of the relay and see what happens. If it turns the engine over the relay is bad, if it doesnt then its either the battery, ground or starter. You may have the proper voltage in the battery, but when you put a load on it it can not handle the amps. That could be it also.

 

[ck89coupe]

Thanks everyone for the quick responce. Dagger, I feel pretty stupid with my relay test....bet you can't tell I have had 500+ hours of electronics training! I should have known better. I'm so frustrated with this thing I'm drawing at straws.
87T:
Thanks for the post. I seen it on Corral this morning. I plan to test the coil tonight when I get home. The only thing I'm concerned about is that the trouble shooting tree starts with "Cranks OK" Mine isn't really cranking OK except for the first few seconds.
For the ground suggestion, last night I updgraded the ground cable to the heavy duty welding cable. I attached one end to my aluminum head on the front drivers side and connected it to the old sway bar mount on the frame rail. I did just have the entire car repainted including the engine compartment, before this motor install. Maybe I didn't get enough of the paint removed where I connected the ground to the frame rail. I will post the results of tonights tests.

 

[Mavrick]

Sand a small patch where the ground goes to.. and i've also heard that grounding to an aluminum head is not the best idea.. why not ground to the block in the stock position, beside the oil pressure sender?

How big is the ground on your battery? it should be 1/0 welding cable as well.

 

[jrichker]

The best results for battery in the trunk are obtained when you run a separate ground from the battery to the engine block.

If you have an electronics background, the following site will help... http://www.fluke.com/application_notes/automotive/circuit.asp?AGID=1&SID=103#volt

 

[ck89coupe]

Thanks to everyone for there help and suggestions. The car is now running. The solution...my own stupidity... the distributor was the culprit the whole time. After tearing apart the car to double check all my electrical connections, replacing the coil, and the starter relay, I discovered that I had the distributor phased wrong(Dual sinc distributor). I installed the Accell Gen 7 DFI this past spring and I'm not all that familiar with it. I also, during the swap to the new DSS block, changed to a Fluid Dampener balancer. I had left the plug wires attached to the distributor cap during the disassembly. It didn't dawn on me that maybe with a new balancer this could change (they all needed to be moved one terminal clockwise). Needless to say, after starting the distributor install process from scratch, reading instructions step by step... it fired first try. Thanks again for your help. Hopefully all this can be a help to someone..