92 5.0 running hot, running rich

daddystang

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Aug 13, 2006

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Aug 13, 2006

#1

• Aug 13, 2006

• #1

Looking for any help I can get. I just put a 306 with 10:1 compression, AFR 165 heads, E303 , 24lb's, C&L 76mm mass air w/24lb tube, Equal length headers in my 92 mustang. The problem- when driving, the temp willl stay around 175-180 (with 180 thermostat), but as soon as I come to a stop it shoots up 200. I've tried a new waterpump, new fan clutch, and I already put in a big tube radiator in it with no luck. The stock motor ran at 165 all day long. I have the head gaskets on correctly with the word "FRONT" toward the front of the motor. I don't know if maybe the radiator is clogged, but I don't think it should be, but at this point I don't know what to think. Since it cools when I'm driving, it would appear that the fan isn't flowing enough air at idle. It's a 5-speed, and I have the idle at 900rpm. I'm stumped, and disappointed I can't drive it. Has anyone had the same problem.

 

J

Jack's95gt

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Aug 15, 2004

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Huntingdon Valley, PA

Aug 13, 2006

#2

• Aug 13, 2006

• #2

200 degrees isn't bad at all. Underdrive pulleys can decrease your cooling capabilities. I put the stockers back on because of it.

 

C

coupecop

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Aug 9, 2006

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mission texas

Aug 13, 2006

#3

• Aug 13, 2006

• #3

have you ever thoutht of putting electric fans i put som on mine and it barly reaches 160 even with the ac on ther off a 97 winstar 6cyl

 

HISSIN50

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#4

• Aug 13, 2006

• #4

If desiring to keep the mech fan, I might recommend a metal fan blade. I use a FAL metal replacement (30 bucks) and it moves a lot more air than the plastic OEM unit did.

No underdrive pulleys or anything like that, right?
Do you know that the new fan clutch is working properly. They are really finicky about how they're even stored - if the guys at the parts store just toss them on a shelf, it can take away from how well they perform.

Good luck.

 

daddystang

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Aug 14, 2006

#5

• Aug 14, 2006

• #5

Thanks for the replies.

I thought about the mechanical fan being a problem. It's a factory "looking" aftermarket fan, and I thought maybe the blades are flexing and not moving enough air. I tried taking the idle up to 1500 rpm today, and in 85 degree temperature outside sitting still the temp got up to 210, but when I would drive, the temp went down to 189. Should I try a metal blade fan on the fan clutch, or should I just use a spacer? This is my third clutch in two weeks, all performing the same. Any other suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated as I am very lost as to what to try next. Any information on using a metal fan as far as a brand, and where to purchase it, and with how many inches of a spacer to use. Does everyone agree that this seems to be a problem with how much air is being moved thru the radiator. Please help, I'm stumped, and just want to drive it. On another thought, does anyone have any good or bad experiences with using a C&L 76mm mass air w/24lb injectors. I was told by a friend today that they aren't the greatest because they use the factory electronic plug on top. He said PRO M makes better ones that come with their own individually calibrated control on top. I'm not sure. The air fuel ratio guage says it runs all the way rich when it's first started, but when it gets up to 180 and more, it was going all the way to the bottom "lean". The chrome headers also were turning blue. I adjusted the fuel pressure up to 46lbs, and it seems to be running better, now the guage stays around the middle.

 

9

90bluegt

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Aug 14, 2006

#6

• Aug 14, 2006

• #6

I'm running the C&L meter with 24#ers and it doesn't seem to be an issue with anything. Your car is going to run rich at start-up due to the computer.

You should get your idle down, idling at 900 RPM's isn't the graetest thing in the world. I have a pretty extreme cam in my car and she idles around 650 to 700 RPMs.
It sounds like to me like there are underdrive pulleys on it, they can really make a car run warmer when idling.
Honestly though, 200 - 210 degrees really isn't that bad. Now if it were around 230 or more then yea you got a problem. Also your comparing a stock 302 to a built 306, that's like apples and oranges.

Check and pull the codes, even if the CEL isn't on there still can be some error codes.

 

HISSIN50

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#7

• Aug 14, 2006

• #7

If you are considering running a fixed fan (no clutch), I'd strongly consider a strong OEM E-fan (Mark 8, Viper, Taurus, et al). They move a ton of air at idle (when a mech fan turns the slowest - kinda backwards of what one might desire).

I think cooling systems run well based upon a sum of the tiny parts - a good clutch, metal fan blade (or good E-fan), having the shroud sealed to the radiator's face, etc all add up to bring temps down handfuls of degrees. But it often isnt any one thing that makes a huge difference. I can dig up the part number for the FAL metal fan blade if you want, but I'd hate for the issue to be the clutch or something else and this not really fix things. The money would go a long ways toward a J/Y OEM fan (if you have a 3G alt, I'd almost positively say get the E-fan instead). And I'm a guy who likes mech fans (and I think the E-fan might be the best bet for you).

Random thoughts. Good luck.

 

daddystang

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Aug 15, 2006

#8

• Aug 15, 2006

• #8

Thanks to all again for the advice. HISSIN50, I'd like to get that FAL part number from you to try, and what spacer you think would be appropriate, though I'm starting to think an electric fan may be the thing to try. Do you have a part number and supplier of a goood E-fan to try. The reason I shy away from an E-fan is that when I bought the car a year ago it had a cheap looking fan on it with no thermostat on it. I had to keep it switched, and it didn't keep things cool, untill I went to a stock fan set up, and cooling was great. I noticed a fan in Summit that says it flows 3300 cfm. Not knowing much about CFM's. Should that do the trick? I agree with the statement apples to oranges when comparing a stock 302 to a built 306, but I still think it should stay below 180. Thanks again for the help and advice, pls keep it coming, it is much needed, and much appreciated. If I go with an E-fan, I guess I would want to get one flowing the most cfm's I can get, and one that is big enough to cover most of the radiator surface. A friend suggested I try a 93 cobra water pump pulley, because it's smaller and will turn the water pump and fan faster to help the cooling. Anyone got any thoughts on that.
Thanks again for the help.......

 

HISSIN50

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#9

• Aug 15, 2006

• #9

In skimming the thread, I wanted to say (though I think it's understood) that the fan is likely the issue (since you run at a nice temp at speed).

If you want a great flowing fan, you cant go wrong with a Mark 8 fan or a Viper fan. One used to be able to get new Mark 8 fans from Houston Performance for 150 bucks new, but I don't know anymore. I like the J/Y M8 route because the fan should hold up well and if you need a new motor (They come with a Siemens motor - a Tier One company), you can get new motors alone.
Here's an article on the Mark 8 install - in case you want background info.

There is a place that sells (or sold) Viper fans (see Ponyboy19's webpage for pics of his) but I don't know it off the top of my noggin.

Other than a few aftermarket fans (Spal and select others), I'm really hinky about the numbers some fans brag about (I live in the desert and need top notch performance). Some fans' CFM specs are based upon the assumption that there is no impediment to air flow (they dont show the CFM that the fan flows through a radiator, but rather just free air). My desk fan blows like crazy in free air but wouldnt pull a lot of air through a radiator and condenser.


The absolute best fan controller is from DcControl.com. But it's a bit pricey if being added to a new E-fan. It's a lot easier to install than most BS controllers, and works flawlessly.

I think the FAL fan blade I got was FLX-5918, but I need to double check that. One other thing that I think you mentioned: having the fan blade spaced properly in the shroud is imperative. I'd tinker with that if yours isnt dialed in just right.

I once read about the 93 cobra WP pulley being smaller (overdriven) compared to the pulley on my 94, but I dont know if it's true for foxes.

Random thoughts after having been awake for too long.

Good luck with the tinkering and decisions on fan stuff.

 

daddystang

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Aug 15, 2006

#10

• Aug 15, 2006

• #10

I ordered the cobra water pump pulley to try. At $35 I thought it might be a cheap place to start. I tried moving the radiator closer, and further away from the fan with no luck. Should I also go back to the stock crank pulley, or stay with the underdrive crank pulley? The next question is, if the pulley doesn't do the trick, do I spend for the metal fan and spacer, or do I just bite the bullet and go with the electric fan. I was looking in Summit, jegs, 50resto, etc..., and saw a fan for about $285 that had 8 "S" shaped plades and a pretty big fan shroud. Does anyone know of anyone who has tried this type of fan, or heard anything about it? The name of the fan eludes me, which is bad because I just looked at it earlier today. Thanks for the information and part numbers Hissin50.

 

daddystang

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Aug 15, 2006

#11

• Aug 15, 2006

• #11

From what I'm reading, it sounds like the E-fan seems to the everyones choice. I do have the 200amp alternator already installed, so charging with the electric fan shouldn't be a problem.

 

HISSIN50

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#12

• Aug 15, 2006

• #12

Were it me, I'd do the E-fan. But like I mentioned, my personal preference on the fan choice would be a much cheaper one.

I'll let others comment on the aftermarket fans (like you're lookin at) since I dont have much experience with most of them.

Good luck!

 

F

fourmustangs

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Mar 30, 2005

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Houston

Aug 16, 2006

#13

• Aug 16, 2006

• #13

I was havin same heat problem...
installed 160 stat and also have pullies so cooling little worse at idle.....its just too hot right now nothin wrong with car...I jump 40-50 degrees here in south Texas

 

daddystang

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Aug 17, 2006

#14

• Aug 17, 2006

• #14

I should be getting the cobra waterpump pulley today. It's going to be close to 90 degrees today, so it will be a good test to see if the cooling gets any better. I'll let you all know what I find. I know 210 isn't terrible, but I do want it to come down some. Thanks for the input.

 

daddystang

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Aug 13, 2006

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Aug 17, 2006

#15

• Aug 17, 2006

• #15

Tried the Cobra waterpump pulley today with seemingly no luck. While driving the car the temp went to 190 again, but seemed to come down quicker to about 185. I thought I had made some great progress, but when I pulled it in the garage again and let it idle for about a minute, the temperature shot up to almost 200. I've yet to let it go too far past that for fear of blowing a head gasket. When I first fired it up, it seemed to be blowing a lot more air in the engine compartment, so I thought things would be great.... NOT...I am really trying to stay with the stock fan set up. I don't get why nothing I have tried has helped even in the slightest. Does anyone know if this is a problem with AFR heads with the Trickflow intake. I'm going to pull it up on a steap hill tomorrow and see if I can get anymore air out of the cooling system. I've done this six times already, but who knows, maybe theres still air in there. Each time I "burp" the system, when it's up to temperature I crack open the radiator and let out the pressure (and some antifreeze with the car off), let it sit a couple minutes, and then start the car, and the level in the radiator drops over half way. That's when I dump more antifreeze in, then replace the cap, drive it a little, and do it all over again. Am I doing this correctly. One guy told me to drive it with the cap off, that don't sound right. Should I just keep doing this untill the level doesn't drop anymore. When I top it off, after a minute or two, the level rises and starts pouring out of the radiator, that's when I put the top back on. Should I just let it overflow, and watch it for something. I am still very confused. I may have no choice but to go with an electric fan, but I want to try everything else first. Please help!!! Thanks

 

jrichker

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Aug 18, 2006

#16

• Aug 18, 2006

• #16

Burping the cooling system is a myth. Nature abors a vacuum and a vacuum is created when hot coolant expands, displacing the air in the system. When it cools, it will suck coolant back in from the overflow tank because it created a vaccum.

Don't believe me? try this simple test: take a can with a screw on lid and fill it 1/3 full of water. Heat the can on the stovetop or grill until you see a good amount of steam coming out the top. Turn off the heat and screw the lid on the can. As the can cools, the vacuum that is created will suck the sides of the can in, collapsing it. Expanding water displaces air, cooling air contracts. When there is no air to replace the air that the steam displaces, you have a vacuum. The vacuum will suck water into it.

 

9

90bluegt

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Aug 18, 2006

#17

• Aug 18, 2006

• #17

One thought that i have is that again you went from a stock 302 to a built 306, the stock cooling system isn't going to be able to cool a built 306. Then since you changed out the radiator, what did you go with for a radiator?

Also, you'll need to move more air than the stock fan can so you will probably need either a flex-a-light fan that bolts on like stock or an e-fan. I know you wanted to keep the stock cooling setup, but a 306 will need better cooling system than the stock setup.

 

daddystang

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Aug 18, 2006

#18

• Aug 18, 2006

• #18

Thanks 90bluegt and everyone else. Do you guys agree that a flexalite metal fan will move as much air as an e-fan? Should I try one that bolts onto the fan clutch, or one that bolts on with a spacer. OR should I just bite the bullet and get the electric fan like hissin50 suggests, who seems to be very knowledgeable. I'm just trying to get as much input as I can so I make a smart purchase and don't keep throwing money away. 90bluegt, and hissin50 are right, the stock set up isn't keeping up on the cooling duties, but would a metal blade fan do the trick. Please keep inputting, and I'll keep you informed of my progress. Who know's, maybe all this will help someone else. Thanks...

 

87Mustang351

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Sep 12, 2005

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Canada, Nova scotia, Cape Breton

Aug 18, 2006

#19

• Aug 18, 2006

• #19

i have alot of up hills in my area my mods are in my sig and a few extras but i run a stock rad and stock fan, i run about 200 up the hills but just crusing around my area i run 180, this winter im going to invest in a alunium rad and a mark VIII fan

 

daddystang

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Aug 13, 2006

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Aug 18, 2006

#20

• Aug 18, 2006

• #20

Since I swapped the underdrive waterpump pulley for the Cobra overdrive pulley, should I go back to the stock crank pulley instead of the underdrive crank pulley. I wasn't sure if adding the stock crank pulley back on would some how change the speed of the water pump pulley. If anyone knows, please let me know. Thanks...