'93 Motor Trend Cobra Vs Z28

[Grabbin' Asphalt]

So personally, I feel a comparison of a new platform "4th generation Camaro" v.s. the last "3rd generation platform mustang" is at odds to start with. So the mustangs run from '79-'93 3rd generation v.s. camaro '82-'92 3rd generation is more accurate. But for the sake of an article about cars in production in the same year, we'll look at a couple key points, for me anyways. From the magazine stats, the camero up'd the compression 10.25:1 v.s. mustangs 9.0:1, then they added aluminum heads v.s. cast iron mustang heads, then added a 6spd tranny with 3.23 gears v.s. the 5spd tranny 3.08 geared mustang and only beat our 3rd generation mustang in the quater mile with a sec/mph time of 14.0/98.8 camaro v.s. 14.4/97.4 mustang time. Which we all know a change of drivers can easily, possibly challenge that difference of separation of numbers on any given track. So from ALL they added and didn't wax our butt's, isn't really bragging rights, it's really a compliment we did it right from our 302 to start with on our 3rd generation run and we damn near smacked there 4th generation up side the damn head

 

[Grabbin' Asphalt]

Thought this forum read was funny about generation wars

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-177366.html

 

[91TwighlightGT]

You make a great point about the gear ratios in the Fox cars. These cars were just so hamstrung by that 3.08 "performance" gear set. That car would have run so much better with a 3.55 gear from the factory. A stroker crank and 331 CI would have been really nice.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

To be clear, I wasn't saying "ha, see how much more power the LS3 makes!" but rather just reinforcing the point that they are similar power levels despite the "low tech" push rod technology in the LS3.

Looks like I was wrong on the weight, I grabbed that off of Camaro5 and it was incorrect. 18 lbs. isn't much, but it does matter. The LS still carries it's weight down lower which is better from a handling perspective, and it still wins in the packaging and simplicity of design.

Again, combined MPG is 19 for the respective cars. Camaro is slightly better in the city and Mustang slightly better on the highway. Part of that is going to be the car that they are packaged in, as the Corvette has shown that the LS engines can do very well in a low drag package.

I just want to be very clear, I am in no way saying that the Coyote is a piece of junk. My whole point is that the move to overhead cams instead of pushrods hasn't proven to create a much better engine. The LS series matches the Coyote in power and fuel economy, and wins in simplicity and packaging. Think about this - For pretty much every car, there is a Chevy LS swap kit. BMW 3-series? LS swap available. Miata? LS swap available. They are cheap and can make great power, and you can fit them in just about anything. You won't easily fit a Coyote in a Miata. Also, you can find an LS motor in any junkyard at any time for a small amount of money. How many Coyotes are out there? If you find a good one, you will pay for it.

I agree on most points above, but it should be noted regarding the "swap" packages.

The LS family of engines has been around for 18-years now and it seems like GM stuffed them in anything with a steering wheel at one time or another. The Ford Coyote has only dipped it's toes in the pool thus far with it's current 4-year (and counting) run.....and even then they can only be found in the Mustangs and F150's.

The main reason before anything else that the LS swap has become so popular is market saturation. The wrecking yards are literally littered with them. You can bet if there was as many Coyote's out there as there were LSX's the used engine prices on them would come way down (supply and demand) and the swap kits would be flying off the shelves.

Remember....the first LS1's came out of the box making 350hp with 5.7L of displacement when stuffed into GM's flagship Corvette. Fast forward 15-years and the Coyote shoots right out of the gate besting those figures by over 60hp and did so with only 5.0L of displacement and clocking in at nearly 70lbs less mass.....all while matching GM's earlier fuel economy. Within two short years, Ford has jacked up those numbers again another 35hp to an impressive 444hp with the Boss variant. Now, I wouldn't begin to speculate how far Ford will attempt to stretch these power figures with the current platform in the future, but that's surpassed anything GM has accomplished with the LS series thus far? At least from a power to cubic inch ratio? So yeah, something tells me that the popularity of the Coyote swap is just getting started.

Regarding fit.....I've come to realize that if someone wants to put a certain engine in their vehicle, they'll find a way to make it work, regardless of their dimensional incompatibility. Gear-heads are funny like that?

 

[91TwighlightGT]

I agree on the fact that the LS is more common, but I really just think it speaks more to the versatility of the engine than anything else. While the Coyote is still a new design, the modular motor has been around since 1991 and it has never enjoyed the popularity of the LS.

It should be noted that the 7.0L LS7 in the Z06 has a 505 HP rating.

Incidentally, I have never liked the argument of HP/Liter. While it is a measure of efficiency, in the real world we don't really measure it that way. We measure it by power output and fuel economy. The fact that the LS has a displacement advantage is irrelevant if it can deliver the same fuel economy and power as a smaller OHC engine. It is a testament to the design that it can be run as a 5.3L everyday engine in a run of the mill blazer or a 7.0L Torque Monster in a Z06 Corvette.

Last thing - With regards to the Coyote's growth potential, I agree that it has a bright future ahead of it. However, much like the article that started this thread, we are comparing the brand new Ford design to the now "old" GM design. As someone stated above, the new LT Series engines are already slated to replace the LS series.

One thing I think we can definitely agree on is that with the current powerplants being offered it is a great time to be a gearhead.

 

[02 281 GT]

So to summarize, Ford has finally put a worthy engine in the Mustang and taken away the advantage that was had by Chevy for nearly two decades.

Camaros/Firebirds were always faster than their Mustang counterparts once they put a worthy engine between the fenders. And in the interest of honesty, no one ever cared about our "yeah, but, you have more displacement..." excuses which were offered heretofore. The good news is that we no longer have to offer excuses; Ford finally has the upper hand. All they need is time to prove the worthiness of the new 5.0 platform. It's not going anywhere anytime soon; and with a new Mustang very soon on the horizon, all eyes will be on Ford and their engines.

 

[Bullitt347]

At some point GM will have to bite the bullet and put the LS engines out to pasture. A pushrod engine by it's very nature is not efficient. With ever tightening emissions and CAFE standards, the life of the LS is doomed. Ford saw the writing on the wall back in the 20th century and switched to more efficient overhead cam design engines. GM and Dodge are the only car manufactures still grasping at that last straw trying to make what they have last. The mod motors are only more complex because it is not the same old same old. I put cams in my 08' Bullitt in 3 hrs. with no power tools. Did not have to remove the intake manifold or timing cover, just v/c's and air box and battery. Did not even have to drain the coolant. Yes that 4.6 is so complicated..lol. (BTW I bought the "special tools" off of E-bay for $70.) Everyone said the sky was falling when EFI came out......OHC technology is just scratching the surface, pushrods died in the 20th century for the rest of the world, GM and Dodge just have not figured that out yet.,

 

[stykthyn]

I would have to argue that the ohc engines will be the demise of push rod technology. The very fact that gm and dmc have kept it alive are points to the contrary. I have nothing against either engine but butter your bread side up or down both engine models are doing superbly well and aftermarket companies are benefiting from this. Both have their advantages and advantages and that's up to the consumer to decide what their poison is. Would I love to see a push rod engine back on the mustang? Meh. Would i care If gm went an ohc engine? not really. As long as both offer viable performance options that trickle down to the consumer levels life is good. When I flat foot the loud pedal and that smile lights my face its because demand from the aftermarket community has brought performance to us at affordable prices due to advances from each competitor and what they have brought to the table. To each their own and the sky is the limit.

 

[91TwighlightGT]

Well, your bullitt has two less cams than the Coyote. It isn't the same thing, exactly. How much did you spend on two cams? An LS only needs one. A Coyote needs four. You cannot debate the simplicity of the LS engine in terms of cost, maintenance, and reliability.

As far as push rod engines being dead... whatever, we've been hearing it for 30 years now. Need more power? Add even more displacement. I can't wait until the Corvette comes out with an 8.0L Pushrod V8 with 700 HP and still knocks out 30 mpg on the highway.

BTW, OHC engines aren't some new technology. They've been around since the 1930's, and that goes for DOHC as well. Again, unless it is making more power with better mileage then the efficiency argument goes out the window. People have been brought up to think OHC=good and OHV=Junk, and it just isn't true.

 

[General karthief]

Lol @ the replies here. Wishful thinking from the Ford crowd, at its best.

The 93 Z28 was a VERY fast car when it came out. Fords GT40 cobra engine was underrated and it still lost. Nobody cares about how much more ci the Chevy had to beat the Ford. The 350 is still a small engine.

Then there’s talk of why the Camaro got canned after decades of outselling the Ford mostly, and that is true only because GM lost market share after share and they honestly didn’t know how to run the company in that manor. I don’t know if y’all are aware how BIG GM used to be on a global scale? It was a monster! Way bigger than FoMoCo. Way more profitable.

I got lots of love for the 93 Cobra. Still one of my favorite cars ever! But the Camaro was a superior car. Built on the thirdgen platform which was already superior to the Fox platform, but then upgraded to be even more menacing with a composite body to boot.

I miss the days when you could actually modify a car and have the damn thing stand out from the rest. 12’s may have been fast but they were also fun. What a cool moment in time!

BTW, those 4th Gen early cars have grown on me. I used to pass on the idea of those in a hurry. These days, they actually look good and the styling is clean. Something I still wish GM did. Oh well, we have the most rockin Mustangs made since the 60’s!

Well, spoken like a closet brand x'er that identifies as a Ford.
all joking aside, the 93 z28 sold 48,490 units
I didn't have time to find a break down between LX and GT mustangs but almost 57k units sold in 93, we could lump all camaros and all mustangs sold in 93 and if I remember correctly mustang came out on top.
I didn't look but if memory serves me the camaro only out sold mustang one year.
We could break it down IROC vrs Cobra and so on but the real thing here is you stirred up a 8 year old thread that could spark an interesting discussion.

 

[General karthief]

I agree with you, the new stuff just doesn't have the charm the older stuff had,
Be careful about the mustang ll, we have some venomous ll members here, they have to walk by our door to get to the ll forums and they will sneek in and bite you on the ankles like a rapid chiwawa.
gotta love those ll's for stamina.

 

[Monkeybutt2000]

Well,being a Fox I'm 100% sure everyone here would rather have the Cobra. What's a 93 Z/28 worth nowadays? $2 bill and an everlasting jawbreaker.

 

[Boostedpimp]

Lol @ the replies here. Wishful thinking from the Ford crowd, at its best.

The 93 Z28 was a VERY fast car when it came out. Fords GT40 cobra engine was underrated and it still lost. Nobody cares about how much more ci the Chevy had to beat the Ford. The 350 is still a small engine.

lol I had zero problems smoking those cars in my 90lx back in high school.

 

[nickyb]

Chevy verses Ford , it's a tale as old as time.
( watching movies with grand kids)

 

[General karthief]

And to the guy saying he never had a problem in his LX hatch… bullsh$&. Keep telling yourself a Fox body has never been beaten by a F Body. If you say it enough, you might actually become a non binary democrat and start believing your lie.

This is not they way to respond to a post around here. Don't confuse us with facepage, not a good start.

 

[General karthief]

You been here 10 years with what 19 posts????
I'm don't do cancel culture, I also don't put up with member abuse, there is a difference.

 

[General karthief]

 

[General karthief]

And to the guy saying he never had a problem in his LX hatch… bullsh$&. Keep telling yourself a Fox body has never been beaten by a F Body. If you say it enough, you might actually become a non binary democrat and start believing your lie.

This is the comment I have an issue with, we don't bash other members here.
Although minor but then you pile on the 'cancel culture ' comment when warned,
you join and post a few times and then nothing for like 10 years, then you come here, drag up a 8 year old thread and defend the camaro on a mustang forum? That sounds like trolling to me.

 

[General karthief]

BTW. With all the cancel culture in this era and PC walking on eggshells, I’ll say what I damn well want to say bud. What are you going to do? Ban me like Spotify? Go ahead. Cancel me. If that’s all it takes to make it happen I don’t want to be here. (What a joke)

Just ban yourself, you can't say whatever you want to say here, bud.

 

[nickyb]

Just ban yourself, you can't say whatever you want to say here, bud.

Hey like we will miss you , Not!