95 tuning

[parastang]

i've searched the forums and from what i gather most of you buy pms or other self tuners. my question is if i already have a chip is it worth trying to fix the driveability bugs or: a> switch to a 93 computer or b> buy a pms of some kind?
my set up is: 331, vortech 6# boost, 80mm maf, 42# injectors, afr 165, trick flow street heat intake, crane fire ball w/retard, fmu, 75mm tb
also, where are some other good sources of info on tuning? my friend is doing the tuning for me and for a very long time now this thing has been one headache after another.
thanks for the help!!

 

[Stanger007]

Sounds like you don't care to spend countless hours learning how the tuning stuff works - I don't blame ya and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Plus you have a "dangerous" combo that a tuning mistake could easily ruin... not a lotta room for error.

Because of that, I'd get a tuner to make you a custom dyno tune... get the most, safest HP possible and dial out all the bugs.

I'd bet it will be the best $500 you've ever spent on your car.

My 2c,
Wes

 

[final5-0]

If you choose to get a Pro to do the tuning, be sure you tell him in detail about your drivability issues and concerns.

Of course, you wanna pick up max power but with a combo such as you got, drivability can be much more of an issue than na. Not always but with very large inj's, and aftermarket caled meter to match, you usually have your hands full.

One good thing about self tuning is you can work on things until you are completely satisfied.

I can agree with Wes above about learning to tune on a forced combo not allowing much room for error.

I don't wanna start a pissin match about this subject so I'll just give my opinion about the older Fox pcm retrofit in 94-95 Stangs.

I'd just find a Pro Tuner who has experience with 94-95 Stangs and get him to tune the pcm you now got before I went to the Fox pcm.

If you care to search for info on the retro fit you will find many, many past threads about the subject from those who are pro as well as con on this very site I might add.

Grady

 

[parastang]

thanks for the responses. looking back i wish i had found this particular forum before i committed to what i have now. i didn't know our year cars were such a PITA when it came to the computer. aw well, live and learn.... final 5.0 i was checking out your web site and i think some of the info and link you have on there will be a great deal of use to me at some point or another as i stumble my way though tuning and taming the beast i have. one more question: do you guys know of any reputable tuners in north carolina or a source where i can find them?

 

[final5-0]

thanks for the responses. looking back i wish i had found this particular forum before i committed to what i have now. i didn't know our year cars were such a PITA when it came to the computer. aw well, live and learn.... final 5.0 i was checking out your web site and i think some of the info and link you have on there will be a great deal of use to me at some point or another as i stumble my way though tuning and taming the beast i have. one more question: do you guys know of any reputable tuners in north carolina or a source where i can find them?

I'm glad you found the info helpful

IMHO, A Fox or SN95 combo like yours is gonna need a custom tune for best power and drivability.

You just need to learn to do it yourself or pay someone who already has the knowledge.

Just cause one has a 94-95 does NOT mean they don't have options when it comes to tuning. That can be said for ANY combo no matter if it be NA or Forced.

My combo is no different from a stocker in the drivability department. The idle is quite stable, and like a little stocker Stang, I don't have any stalling, bucking, surging or anything like that.

I say that not to brag ... as many others have achieved the same themselves with Self or Pro Tune. Just a little info to let you know the possibities.

Hope you get your combo tuned to your satisfaction which ever method you choose

Grady

 

[Methodical]

Here's my .02 worth. I don't know how your pockets are but here's something to think about. You can get a custom tune for driveability, WOT or both, then buy the TwEECer and have your custom tune burned to the TwEECer. Now, you still have your custom tune but you will be able to self tune from there and try out different scenarios etc. and still maintain your custom tune. You can have your custom self tunes on switches 1-4 and your custom tune of 5. This way you get the best of both worlds.

 

[cbarr300]

ahhh yes, welcome to the world of the supercharger and the sn-95 computer.....I've been messing with mine for the last 4 months and still haven't killed the demons so to speak. It is a LOT better though...thanks SN. I couldn't drive it at all when I first got it..now it has a buck at lower rpms that's slowly getting better.

basically, If you have the time, commitment, equipment (laptop), and the resources (sn, among many others) and you enjoy learning how things work and making things work better...then the tweecer or other pms is a good choice.

If you wanna just get it over with and not worry about it anymore then see a pro tuner.

however..in grady's words...."why would u not want to know ur tune?".....or something similar to those words.

It all just depends on what kind of mindset/time you have.

my chunk of change.

Oh yeah, just wanted to thank STANGNET for all of the help. Ur website has also been most helpful grady ::thumbsup::

 

[final5-0]

Another thing I have always thought about when comparing Self Tune to Pro Tune

Putting aside the more simple wot portion of the tune
and
focusing on the more difficult drivability issues only

I have these concerns

Pro or Self Tuner
how competent is the one doing the tuning
how many attempts to get drivability issues fixed
etc, etc, etc

Most self tuners I know, are kind of a perfectionist
They spend a lot of time going for that perfect tune

I have to confess ... I've had a lotta fun with it

anyway ....................

I always wonder about a tune you would pay for

You see peeps praise about their Pro Tunes
and
Peeps come on here with suspicions about their tune
and
When you ask questions about what was done ........

They don't have a clue
Yet they paid for that service

That kinda deal would not set well with me at all

I mean, How good is it really

A Pro can only spend so much time before he is loosing money

I don't know and certainly don't have all the answers here

I just like to ...... or maybe even you could say .........

I have to to be in control of things

Grady

 

[parastang]

i have to admit, the resposes i have gotten are more than i was expecting. as for the pro vs self tune thing... i'm active duty and gone alot. i really don't have the time to play with it. even if i did do my own stuff i would get to a point and have to go somewhere for awhile then come home and forget what i had done and where i was going on the tune.i like methodical's idea of more than 1 tune. i think i want a pro tune to get the car livable and then work out any small bugs that pop up. i have an SCT chip in it and i'm not sure how i would be able to transfer the pro tune from it to a tweecer so i could refine it from there.

 

[Methodical]

i have to admit, the resposes i have gotten are more than i was expecting. as for the pro vs self tune thing... i'm active duty and gone alot. i really don't have the time to play with it. even if i did do my own stuff i would get to a point and have to go somewhere for awhile then come home and forget what i had done and where i was going on the tune.i like methodical's idea of more than 1 tune. i think i want a pro tune to get the car livable and then work out any small bugs that pop up. i have an SCT chip in it and i'm not sure how i would be able to transfer the pro tune from it to a tweecer so i could refine it from there.

Mike Glover, Tweecer inventor, and his distributors will do it for I think about $40ish if I recall. Go to www.Tweecer.com it's on his site.

 

[Methodical]

...Most self tuners I know, are kind of a perfectionist
They spend a lot of time going for that perfect tune

I have to confess ... I've had a lotta fun with it

anyway ....................

I always wonder about a tune you would pay for

You see peeps praise about their Pro Tunes
and
Peeps come on here with suspicions about their tune
and
When you ask questions about what was done ........

They don't have a clue
Yet they paid for that service
Grady

I would like to add to Grady's comments. Also, what I've found doing some research - from what I remember - some peeps discovered that the Pro tuner only made very minimal changes (i.e. spark etc.). I think they discovered this when they had their custom tune burned to the TwEEcer and they looked at the changes when compared to stock settings.

Grady, I am with you I want control of my tune and everything else dealing with my car, especially since I am the one who build the motor. Plus I am a perfectionist too .

 

[final5-0]

I would like to add to Grady's comments. Also, what I've found doing some research - from what I remember - some peeps discovered that the Pro tuner only made very minimal changes (i.e. spark etc.). I think they discovered this when they had their custom tune burned to the TwEEcer and they looked at the changes when compared to stock settings.

So true ... So true!

Over the years, I've seen many say those kind of things.

Again ..............
WOT on the street with a Self Tuning interface
or
WOT on a dyno burning a Chip

Its cake compared to drivability issues

There is so much more to tuning than the WOT thing
and
Drivability issues is where one can be snookered

No matter if they or someone else is doing the tuning

From everything I've seen about Pro's doing the tuning

The good one's give some kind of reburn or provide a way to make things right for their customers if those issues are not quite right after the first burn.

To those of you who Self Tune .......

Have you ever thought about trying to tune someone elses Stang in a one shot kinda deal

I have ... many times

I have often thought I would just have to get in the ballbark for the CL part of the tune (drivability stuff) and hope the adaptive would smooth out the rest over time.

Grady

 

[Stanger007]

I can't imagine tuning someone's car with a twEECer and only having one shot at it... I'm nowhere near that skilled. The SCT software looks like it makes life a lot easier though.

From what I've seen of the SCT software, it definately helps the tuner out a good deal with the drivability killing mods - like adding larger injectors, a different MAF etc.

The SCT tuning software comes preset with a bunch of settings for different components - if you've got 42lb injectors then you load in those settings (and it changes several tables/scalars/functions), same with the MAF etc. All the stuff we're doing manually with the twEECer/EA after a lot of research... the SCT has it alredy pre-set to get you awfully close.

It looks like it takes care of a lot of the common things and lets the tuner focus on the finer points of the tune and really applying their knowledge for tuning.

Don can shed a lot more light on it than I can - he's the man.

Wes

 

[final5-0]

I agree Wes

Everything I've seen about the SCT stuff is very nice

But Still ....... that little silver box works ...... like it works

No matter how you go about manipulating its values

My main concern is not in the how or method
but
how well things stabilize after enough time has passed

You see where I'm going here

In this kinda deal ..............
you can't watch everything over time
to see how close your original guesses
I mean calculated tweecs

were

and

if they are gonna stabilize to a level of ..........

Close Enough

Grady

 

[parastang]

i see all of your points in the pros and cons of self vs pro tuning and i have to say they are all valid and logical. if i had the time to learn the manipulation of the software:ie the tweecer (which from research seems hard to get at first) and seeing the effects on the car from the start i would. unfortunately time is something i don't have i great quantity. i'm thinking let the pro tune it and work the major stuff out and get it to the point i can live with it and then start playing with the tune to get it compleatly smooth and finished to my liking. one thing i do have going for me with the pro tune is i know the guy on a personal level so i will have continuity as to what he did to my car. final 5.0, are you saying that if i get a tune done that it will change some over time because of the adaptive software in the computer? after reading your last post and the others i get the sense that this is where you all are heading with the self tune thing. correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Stanger007]

final 5.0, are you saying that if i get a tune done that it will change some over time because of the adaptive software in the computer? after reading your last post and the others i get the sense that this is where you all are heading with the self tune thing. correct me if i'm wrong.

My experience has been that as long as your stock sensors are functioning properly (in other words your computer is able to accurately read the incoming air/temps etc) the tune does not drift away from what I've set. The adaptive strategy is there to make small changes for things like varying weather conditions, driving to different altitudes etc but it won't make the car undrivable over time.

If the pro tuning market had a problem with tunes slowly spiraling out of control they would have a very bad rep - because with wilder combos, a bad tune == engine confetti.

To get it all from the horse's mouth, call Don LaSota (http://www.lasotaracing.com/). He TRAINS the guys that do pro tuning and he can give you the nitty gritty on what it's all about.

Wes

 

[final5-0]

The Cosed Loop part or cruise around town part of your tune is being constantly monitored and controlled by various sensers such as O2's, ECT, ACT, etc.

The adaptive strategy system can and will take those various inputs and + or - spark or fuel.

In a perfect world situation, you would change all values from original to exactly the values your particular combo needs or in other words, a custom tune for your Stang and your Stang only.

If your efforts were spot on or right on the money, the adaptive would not play much of a part or be mostly inactive.

Most parts of the tune do not stand alone in the fact that if you make a change to one, that change effects one or more than one other part of the tune.

Adaptive has a range of only so much it can add or pull.

Your tune can and will drift simply because nobody can find new values that are perfect and even it one could do that, the sensors change over time and what was perfect is no longer perfect.

That is what the adaptive is all about.

You see all the time peeps come on these sites say my computer learned about my mods and all was fine.

Bottom line is some mods are not all that big of a deal as far as effecting the pcm and others are.

If you have done things such as 30lb inj's or larger, aftermarket maf, and the like, you most likely have pushed the adaptive to its max limit and that amount is still not enough for what is needed.

Trying to keep this from becoming a novel here!

You got all those brand new hot rod parts and you make your first changes to accommodate them.

Can you get close enough that the adaptive will not call for full + or - or in other words, be and stay in range to cover for a value selection on your part that might not be as close to correct as it needs to be.

How about if something unexpected crops up over time like

Say you got an issue of the O2's cooling a bit too much at idle during long stop lights.

I can tell you the tune will drift and over time and your once stable idle can get more and more unstable.

I guess I'm done rambling now

I just know from my experience ........
my dlogs showed I made an improvement

I also know those dlogs have show me .........
I was not quite close enough on the first rough draft
and I needed to go back and do a bit of editing for a more stable final result.

My knowledge is a good bit better these days ...........
If I was to get my hands on a h/c/i 94-95 Stang with full supporting mods, I really do feel I could get my first efforts fairly close

however

To get it right with one try and one try only

That is why I gotta give a to GOOD Pro's like Don

Grady