69Rcode_Mach1
Active Member
mtbdoc said:
That's when you just get a dual pick up for the oil pump so it makes no difference. But us ford guys are thinkers like that, chevy would rather put the distributor in the back.
A PERFORMANCE sacrilegious swap
- Thread starter mtbdoc
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That's when you just get a dual pick up for the oil pump so it makes no difference. But us ford guys are thinkers like that, chevy would rather put the distributor in the back.
brianj5600
Active Member
The goals you set are quite lofty. The only mustang part you would end up with is the shell. People that build stuff like this don't usually worry about the cost of an aluminum block. You don't sound like you are working on a shoe string budget. Great as they are, I don't think a stock replacement lsx motor would be a good game plan for a no holds barred car.mtbdoc said:
65ShelbyClone
Founding Member
69Rcode_Mach1 said:That's when you just get a dual pick up for the oil pump so it makes no difference. But us ford guys are thinkers like that, chevy would rather put the distributor in the back.
Exactly. Not only that, when's the last time you heard a Ford guy worry about camshaft twist causing spark scatter? I'll admit, if the(302) blocks could take 150hp more, then we'd be all set.
I still think it's funny that this whole thread about doing the unholiest of engine swaps was started just to counter someone curious about putting a FORD 4-cylinder in their early Mustang.
Oh yeah, in case anyone hasn't been following the other thread.......an 8v 2.3 block will hold as much or more power than any of your production 351Ws. Ouch.
And an aluminum LS2 block will handle just as much power; stock LS2 heads flow in the arena of good aftermarket SBF heads; AND THESE CARS CAME WITH PUSHROD V8 ENGINES, in case anyone has forgotten. Drivability? 700+ hp from >6 liters vs 2.3 liters...
As far as the 'vert, there is a lot of steel sub-structure added to it. Pics are around here of the new rear subframe, which fits >12" of tire under the stock sheetmetal. It is going to be an interesting car, to say the least.
As far as the 2+2 and the capabilities of such vehicles, look at the Shelby GT350SR. Same basic goals as what I have noted above. And obviously I'm not the only one thinking alone such lines...look at SN65's latest proposal elsewhere on this board.
As far as the 'vert, there is a lot of steel sub-structure added to it. Pics are around here of the new rear subframe, which fits >12" of tire under the stock sheetmetal. It is going to be an interesting car, to say the least.
As far as the 2+2 and the capabilities of such vehicles, look at the Shelby GT350SR. Same basic goals as what I have noted above. And obviously I'm not the only one thinking alone such lines...look at SN65's latest proposal elsewhere on this board.
brianj5600
Active Member
I still like my old Mustang, but now I'm a Chevy man. You DON'T NEED Chevy power to pull this off, You want it. Quit making excuses. What do you plan on spending to build this car? What will the lsx cost when all is said and done? How much HP?
kmterrill
kill joy
1320stang
Founding Member
mtbdoc said:
That may be, but not a valid argument. Where do you think the pickup is on a rear sump Ford pan?
You move the engine to the rear and the distributor is in the fire wall.
I think you all are
and are just trying to start a 
fest. 
Have you ever done an LS1 swap before???
This isn't a bolt in and go type of thing and you should really research how much is involved with swap before even thinking of considering it.
My buddy's performed 2 LS1 swaps and 1 LT1 swap, the LS1 swap was into his 71 stepside and it took well over a year to get it in and running.
If you're gonna get an LS1/LS2 make sure it comes from a vette otherwise you'll you have to deal with a ****load of emissions crap.
Find out what's involved with the the wiring, computer, etc... I know my buddy had to have a special computer programmed for his swap and the hot rod guys will tell you the same.
The wiring in that truck is a nightmare and I can't imagine how much is involved with making that all work. What are you gonna run for guages?
Fuel system? My buddy worked in a camaro tank which required a lot of modification. In a mustang I don't know what you could do there.
What about A/C? Power steering? Do you want to run A/C? I don't know how your gonna fit stock ford A/C onto a chevy motor. I would say you'd have to forget about that cause there are literaly hundreds of hous involved in fabrication to get the GM heater box/ A/C equipment to work on a mustang, not only that those A/C contraptions stick way out past the firewall and I doubt there would even be room.
Power steering, im at a loss here, I suppose you could rig up the chevy pump to work with stock ford P/S if you had to.
Motor mounts? Headers? What trans? willing to modify transmission tunnel?
Custom Trans crossmember? Radiator? A/C condensor?
While your at it, since you're willing to do all of this work and deal with all of these headaches to supposedly save some money, why not hack up the firewall and move the engine way back under the dash like chevy does so You'll never be able to work on it; but it will help with weight transfer I'm sure.
Personally, I think you'll spend more money and time with this swap than buying something simple that will work and bolt right in, even though the cost may seem higher up front.
Way too much time, way too much money, and waaaayyyy tooo much aggrivation involed in this swap to justify the outcome.
This isn't a bolt in and go type of thing and you should really research how much is involved with swap before even thinking of considering it.
My buddy's performed 2 LS1 swaps and 1 LT1 swap, the LS1 swap was into his 71 stepside and it took well over a year to get it in and running.
If you're gonna get an LS1/LS2 make sure it comes from a vette otherwise you'll you have to deal with a ****load of emissions crap.
Find out what's involved with the the wiring, computer, etc... I know my buddy had to have a special computer programmed for his swap and the hot rod guys will tell you the same.
The wiring in that truck is a nightmare and I can't imagine how much is involved with making that all work. What are you gonna run for guages?
Fuel system? My buddy worked in a camaro tank which required a lot of modification. In a mustang I don't know what you could do there.
What about A/C? Power steering? Do you want to run A/C? I don't know how your gonna fit stock ford A/C onto a chevy motor. I would say you'd have to forget about that cause there are literaly hundreds of hous involved in fabrication to get the GM heater box/ A/C equipment to work on a mustang, not only that those A/C contraptions stick way out past the firewall and I doubt there would even be room.
Power steering, im at a loss here, I suppose you could rig up the chevy pump to work with stock ford P/S if you had to.
Motor mounts? Headers? What trans? willing to modify transmission tunnel?
Custom Trans crossmember? Radiator? A/C condensor?
While your at it, since you're willing to do all of this work and deal with all of these headaches to supposedly save some money, why not hack up the firewall and move the engine way back under the dash like chevy does so You'll never be able to work on it; but it will help with weight transfer I'm sure.
Personally, I think you'll spend more money and time with this swap than buying something simple that will work and bolt right in, even though the cost may seem higher up front.
Way too much time, way too much money, and waaaayyyy tooo much aggrivation involed in this swap to justify the outcome.
69Rcode_Mach1 said:That's when you just get a dual pick up for the oil pump so it makes no difference. But us ford guys are thinkers like that, chevy would rather put the distributor in the back.
Reason chevy dizzys are in the back is because you never have to work on them. Ford dizzys are always breaking down so they need to be up front where you can fix them... at least that is what a chevy guy told me once.
MM, my convertible project is already requiring so much in terms of custom fabrication, that nothing scares me. As far as the LS1 swap, it sure isn't proving much trouble to a friend's 1stGen Firebird. Swap harnesses are not hard to find. Computer? Just use HPTuners [how do you think my turbo LS2 goat got tuned?] A/C...come on, are you using stock Ford stuff? The Old AIr Products has good stuff. Gauges, come on!
And, if I weren't going to go with boost, I would look at a carb'd setup. Very light and functional. Great power.
All of these arguments are no different than that faced by transplanting a mod motor. I would DEFINITELY prefer an LSx engine to a mod in this car [well, MAYBE the aftermarket 'cammer' motor]. Who needs that wide, heavy engine?
Alright, I will not be going this route, since I made a decision to have a 408W w/ a Procharger D2 blower for the 'vert [since this thread was started!]. This leaves me w/ a 331 stroker [sportsman block], afr heads, KB 2.2 blower that need a home!
And, if I weren't going to go with boost, I would look at a carb'd setup. Very light and functional. Great power.
All of these arguments are no different than that faced by transplanting a mod motor. I would DEFINITELY prefer an LSx engine to a mod in this car [well, MAYBE the aftermarket 'cammer' motor]. Who needs that wide, heavy engine?
Alright, I will not be going this route, since I made a decision to have a 408W w/ a Procharger D2 blower for the 'vert [since this thread was started!]. This leaves me w/ a 331 stroker [sportsman block], afr heads, KB 2.2 blower that need a home!
mtbdoc said:
Yeah, but you're still trying to make a race car out of something that's not. There's nothing special about a 65's suspension, chasis, that would justify adding a modern powerful LSx engine and expecting it to hang with porsches.
It would be easier to buy a new ZO6 and make the payments every month than to do what you're suggesting.
1320stang
Founding Member
Funny thing is, there are so many former Chevy racers buying Mustangs to go racing as there are far more Ford Series' to be able to run in, plus they can still run the other series' that allow any make.
My buddy builds drag cars, SSO & Outlaw 10.5 cars mainly and this is what his customers have told him. But when you're talking about 6 & 7 second cars, they all run about the same price anyways, you can't go that fast cheap.
My buddy builds drag cars, SSO & Outlaw 10.5 cars mainly and this is what his customers have told him. But when you're talking about 6 & 7 second cars, they all run about the same price anyways, you can't go that fast cheap.
I'm tempted by such thoughts everytime I go to a friend's shop.
As a pure straightline advocate, the Chevy motors are MUCH cheaper in comparison. For a fuel injected straightline monster, the 408 LS1 based motor, with a set of fully ported 5.3 heads, Victor Jr. Intake, Custom elbow and large throttle body, with a healthy 350 direct port of nitrous oxide.... Well lets just a lesser setup with only a 150 shot has gone mid 9's.
The above setup costs around 11k Finished. This includes the transmission, suspension, fuel system, complete engine, exhaust and cooling.
So guys, sit back and realize that Holley, Edelbrock, MSD, Mallory, and all the other aftermarket parts you have bolted onto your car are NOT factory. Imagine if the LS series of motors just so happened to be produced as a stand alone block not in relation to Chevy... I guess then it wouldnt matter?
As a pure straightline advocate, the Chevy motors are MUCH cheaper in comparison. For a fuel injected straightline monster, the 408 LS1 based motor, with a set of fully ported 5.3 heads, Victor Jr. Intake, Custom elbow and large throttle body, with a healthy 350 direct port of nitrous oxide.... Well lets just a lesser setup with only a 150 shot has gone mid 9's.
The above setup costs around 11k Finished. This includes the transmission, suspension, fuel system, complete engine, exhaust and cooling.
So guys, sit back and realize that Holley, Edelbrock, MSD, Mallory, and all the other aftermarket parts you have bolted onto your car are NOT factory. Imagine if the LS series of motors just so happened to be produced as a stand alone block not in relation to Chevy... I guess then it wouldnt matter?
1320stang
Founding Member
Neither is the setup you just described.
I seem to recall somewhere that the SBC was going to be the SBF but Henry or Edsel didn't want to buy it as they had spent a considerable amount of money developing the Y-block and I think they prefered to develop such stuff from within anyway.
I seem to recall somewhere that the SBC was going to be the SBF but Henry or Edsel didn't want to buy it as they had spent a considerable amount of money developing the Y-block and I think they prefered to develop such stuff from within anyway.
mikemustang289 said:
Easy to buy a Z06...obviously you haven't been trying! And, when all is said and done, that car loses money as soon as you drive it away from the dealer. OTOH, a classic mustang done right with a well-engineered suspension, engine & tranny, and supporting mods will NOT lose value over time.
For pure performance, the other thought I've had is the FFR GTM [which, sorry to inform you, is built w/ an LSx engine rather than the 5.0 engines that FFR has been using for years]. Should be able to be done for ~40-45k or so [parts]. Performance out of this world. Should be able to eat a Z06 in its sleep. BUT: what is it going to be worth down the road? I LOVE the investment side of the classics, as well as the performance potential.
brianj5600
Active Member
OK, I'm confused. The above is a stroker motor? Converted Victor jr intake? Cam? Stock injectors? Let's see, it has a stock block, and worked over stock head castings. Is anything else GM? Sounds like a full on race motor. There were guys doing that in the 80's with Clevelands that were much closer to factory. It took GM 30 years to come up with an answer to the Cleveland. New GM pushrod motors are great, but lets not make them something they are not.351carlo said:...For a fuel injected straightline monster, the 408 LS1 based motor, with a set of fully ported 5.3 heads, Victor Jr. Intake, Custom elbow and large throttle body, with a healthy 350 direct port of nitrous oxide.... Well lets just a lesser setup with only a 150 shot has gone mid 9's.
So guys, sit back and realize that Holley, Edelbrock, MSD, Mallory, and all the other aftermarket parts you have bolted onto your car are NOT factory. Imagine if the LS series of motors just so happened to be produced as a stand alone block not in relation to Chevy... I guess then it wouldnt matter?
I don't know many people who are looking buy classic mustangs powered by chevy.
The FFR GTM is basically a mid engine vette. Powered by vette drivetrain and it doesn't look as good in my opinion. I can see you want the "vette performance" in a mustang body but there's no reason to cheat and do that with their motor.
The JZA80 Supra shortblocks can take 1000+HP stock, why not put one of them in your stang. twin turbo and all. Talking about how great chevy's engines are but they are not all that special considering the pricetag. While the ZO6 may make 500 or whatever horsepower, it's still pretty tame considering how large of engine it is. And you can find new Z06's, just have to know where to look!
The FFR GTM is basically a mid engine vette. Powered by vette drivetrain and it doesn't look as good in my opinion. I can see you want the "vette performance" in a mustang body but there's no reason to cheat and do that with their motor.
The JZA80 Supra shortblocks can take 1000+HP stock, why not put one of them in your stang. twin turbo and all. Talking about how great chevy's engines are but they are not all that special considering the pricetag. While the ZO6 may make 500 or whatever horsepower, it's still pretty tame considering how large of engine it is. And you can find new Z06's, just have to know where to look!
brianj5600
Active Member
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