About to Do Suspension Mods; Few Questions

[Sharad]

^ don't listen to this guy. I'd trust the on track research conducted by MM anyday over what you have to say... no offense...

^^Good point. It's not like that Sharad guy is a contributing editor at 5.0 Mustang Magazine that has been into mustangs for decades.

It's all good. I'm not offended. I just don't agree with the common misconception about upgrading the uppers in a fox mustang...

I'm not an MM hater though. If I had gone the roadrace route with my car, I probably would've used all MM suspension. Griggs is nice, but VERY pricey.

 

[Stumbaugh]

If you do rear control arms, do not skimp out and just do the lowers. When I put my UPR suspension in my car, I just did the lowers at first and yes it was a huge difference over stock. Then one day I decided to quit being lazy and did the uppers. I noticed a HUGE difference. It was almost the same difference I notcied when I swapped out the stock lowers.

 

[Stumbaugh]

is this too low for you?

What suspension are you running? That car sits PERFECT imho.

 

[tomustang]

It's all good. I'm not offended. I just don't agree with the common misconception about upgrading the uppers in a fox mustang...

I'm not an MM hater though. If I had gone the roadrace route with my car, I probably would've used all MM suspension. Griggs is nice, but VERY pricey.

That's fine but it depends on what you're upgrading too. The OP wants to do the Strip and have fun in the Turns. Adding Urethane, even more so in the upper arms creates more bind. Sure it's better than rubbers if you go straight, but that's not only what he wants.

^^Good point. It's not like that Sharad guy is a contributing editor at 5.0 Mustang Magazine that has been into mustangs for decades.

I canceled that crap after they advertised grantelli products as being the best out there

 

[N8Dogg98]

I canceled that crap after they advertised grantelli products as being the best out there

^^Good point. It's not like that Sharad guy is a contributing editor at 5.0 Mustang Magazine that has been into mustangs for decades.

It's all good. I'm not offended. I just don't agree with the common misconception about upgrading the uppers in a fox mustang...

I'm not an MM hater though. If I had gone the roadrace route with my car, I probably would've used all MM suspension. Griggs is nice, but VERY pricey.

I could care less if you're Carrol Shelby, Barack Obama, Henry Ford, or a magazine editor. The fact is if the OP intended on building a car with the sole purpose of running the best 1/4 mile possible I would have recommended UCA's w/ poly or spherical bushings, perhaps even adjustable UCA's. However, Will said the following:

The main goal is to achieve a better look. The secondary goal is to have a more rounded car that will handle the twisties like it should without giving up too much at the drag strip (where it normally goes).

Sounds to me like he wants a well rounded car that handles the twisties AND is capapable of running well at the strip. In that case, UCA's should NOT be considered because when he would be running through the twisties his suspension will bind and be prone to snap oversteer not to mention potential damage to the torque boxes.

BTW you said had you designed your car to be a road race car you would have gone with all MM products. Do you realize they don't even sell aftermarket UCA's rather they just sell the Ford factory replacements

 

[Sharad]

If you do rear control arms, do not skimp out and just do the lowers. When I put my UPR suspension in my car, I just did the lowers at first and yes it was a huge difference over stock. Then one day I decided to quit being lazy and did the uppers. I noticed a HUGE difference. It was almost the same difference I notcied when I swapped out the stock lowers.

Exactly what I was saying. Thanks for the info!

What suspension are you running? That car sits PERFECT imho.

That car does look good. Reminds me of a car I featured in 5.0 Mustang a few months ago:

^^UPR Pro Series suspension front and rear. That's a very smooth and comfortable street/strip car. (runs low 9s in the quarter)

That's fine but it depends on what you're upgrading too. The OP wants to do the Strip and have fun in the Turns. Adding Urethane, even more so in the upper arms creates more bind. Sure it's better than rubbers if you go straight, but that's not only what he wants.

People frequently regurgitate that same mantra about the upper control arms binding... but my own personal experience (as well as what Stumbaugh mentioned above) has proven that a quality set of uppers & lowers tremendously improves the overall handling of the car, not just straight line acceleration.

I canceled that crap after they advertised grantelli products as being the best out there

I'm truly sorry to hear that we've lost you as a subscriber. We like to share our passion for Mustangs with as many people as possible.

However, I'm certain that your granatelli comment is an exaggeration. Steve Turner wouldn't risk offending anyone by calling one company's product "the best out there." In fact, (ironically enough considering this thread) in the first article I wrote years ago, I destroyed a set of Maximum Motorsports lower control arms at the drag strip. When I wrote the article I mentioned that the bushings in the MM Weight Jacker arms disintegrated at the dragstrip so I replaced them with UPR Pro Series control arms and dropped .3 off of my 60 foot time. When my article went to print, he edited my comment to read "the Weight Jacker control arms disintegrated..." In other words, he removed Maximum Motorsports' name so as to avoid offending anyone. That's just not how he operates, so I know he wouldn't have said granatelli is the best.

Besides all of that, all of our Project Cars run either Maximum Motorsports, Steeda, UPR, or RaceCraft suspension. So I know he doesn't believe granatelli is the best.

I could care less if you're Carrol Shelby, Barack Obama, Henry Ford, or a magazine editor. The fact is if the OP intended on building a car with the sole purpose of running the best 1/4 mile possible I would have recommended UCA's w/ poly or spherical bushings, perhaps even adjustable UCA's. However, Will said the following:

Sounds to me like he wants a well rounded car that handles the twisties AND is capapable of running well at the strip. In that case, UCA's should NOT be considered because when he would be running through the twisties his suspension will bind and be prone to snap oversteer not to mention potential damage to the torque boxes.

He said he wants a "better look" and that he "normally goes to the dragstrip" but he wants the car to "handle the twisties like it should without giving up too much at the drag strip"

In my experience, upper & lower control arms with polyurethane bushings acheive those goals. If he's worried about snap oversteer he should install a panhard bar. If he's worried about torque box damage he should install torque box reinforcement plates. However, he said he didn't want to spend a lot of money, so I'd say those UPR Control arms for $199 with a lifetime guarantee are one of the most cost effective suspension mods he can make!

BTW you said had you designed your car to be a road race car you would have gone with all MM products. Do you realize they don't even sell aftermarket UCA's rather they just sell the Ford factory replacements

Thanks for the education.

You know, I actually typed that out last night, but I deleted it for the reason I posted above. (the part about Steve not saying anything derogatory about any of our advertisers) It's ironic that you and I both tried to use the same fact to prove our opposing viewpoints. My take on it is that OF COURSE MM doesn't want you to run upper control arms. They want you to buy their torque arm and panhard bar!!

 

[N8Dogg98]

People frequently regurgitate that same mantra about the upper control arms binding... but my own personal experience (as well as what Stumbaugh mentioned above) has proven that a quality set of uppers & lowers tremendously improves the overall handling of the car, not just straight line acceleration.

If the car in your avatar is yours, it looks to me like you spend most of your time on the 1/4 or 1/8th mile track and not much time road racing. Therefore, as I said earlier UCA's and LCA's are necessary and will improve performance at the drag strip.

In my experience, upper & lower control arms with polyurethane bushings acheive those goals.

UCA's and LCA's will improve track performance, but handling will be slightly compromised and you run the risk of damaging the torque boxes.

If he's worried about snap oversteer he should install a panhard bar.

A PHB added to a car that is running aftermarket UCA's and LCA's actually exasterbates the suspension binding problem and increases the liklihood of ruining the torque boxes.

The real issue here is that the 4 link suspension in and of itself is a bad design. A watts link or PHB/TA set up is much more forgiving when handling on a road course or on the street. That said, the stock UCA's rubber bushings allow for that necessary flex that the 4-link rear by design doesn't really allow.

If he's worried about torque box damage he should install torque box reinforcement plates. However, he said he didn't want to spend a lot of money, so I'd say those UPR Control arms for $199 with a lifetime guarantee are one of the most cost effective suspension mods he can make!

Exactly, cost for him is an issue. Therefore, rather than spend $200 on UCA's and another couple hundred reinforcing the torque boxes, it would make more sense to just replace the rubber bushings in the stock UCA's or simply replace the UCA's. MM sells the bushings for $35 and the tool to remove them for only $30 so that to me is a great inexpensive way to repair your stockers.

Thanks for the education.

Anytime

You know, I actually typed that out last night, but I deleted it for the reason I posted above. (the part about Steve not saying anything derogatory about any of our advertisers) It's ironic that you and I both tried to use the same fact to prove our opposing viewpoints. My take on it is that OF COURSE MM doesn't want you to run upper control arms. They want you to buy their torque arm and panhard bar!!

Yeah, I really don't rip on any company either unless I have a bad experience myself.

To me the idea that MM doesn't sell UCA's simply because they want you to buy the TA and PHB is silly. Most Mustang owners that upgrade the suspension only buy springs, shocks/struts, cc plates, SFC's, and LCA's. I mean honestly, how many people do you know that run the PHB/TA combo? In fact, MM would probably make MORE money if they sold their own UCA's rather than just the stock replacements.

MM produces great products and I have no problem saying that no other company comes close to the quality of their suspension components. I've purchased products from many companies and MM's stuff always has the cleanest welds, incredibly solid construction, the powdercoating is applied evenly and well, etc... I've also been on the phone with them and I've been very impressed by the friendly professional advice they've given. They definitely talk like they know what's going on. I can't say the same about other companies I've been on the phone with. I don't doubt for a second the on-track research they've done with suspension components. You and I may disagree here, but they seem to be the experts when it comes to road racing, just like UPR seems to know their stuff about drag racing

 

[Sharad]

If the car in your avatar is yours, it looks to me like you spend most of your time on the 1/4 or 1/8th mile track and not much time road racing. Therefore, as I said earlier UCA's and LCA's are necessary and will improve performance at the drag strip.



UCA's and LCA's will improve track performance, but handling will be slightly compromised and you run the risk of damaging the torque boxes.



A PHB added to a car that is running aftermarket UCA's and LCA's actually exasterbates the suspension binding problem and increases the liklihood of ruining the torque boxes.

The real issue here is that the 4 link suspension in and of itself is a bad design. A watts link or PHB/TA set up is much more forgiving when handling on a road course or on the street. That said, the stock UCA's rubber bushings allow for that necessary flex that the 4-link rear by design doesn't really allow.



Exactly, cost for him is an issue.

The car in my avatar is a street/strip car. The car that is not in my avatar will be at the TrackGuys HPDE in Sebring in May... and at the Gulf Coast Autocross this weekend if I can find a babysitter. You shouldn't assume I have no roadracing & autocross experience just because my avatar is an NMRA true street car.

In my experience upper & lower control arms improve straight line acceleration AND cornering. Here's my '93 LX with UPR Pro Series uppers & lowers that worked very well on the strip and in the corners.

Incidentally, I built a '93 GT with uppers & lowers and an MM PHB and it handles quite well!

Finally, I agree that MM & Griggs suspension handles far better than the stock 4-link design from the 1978 Fairmont... but the OP suggested that money is an issue so I didn't recommend those systems.

 

[N8Dogg98]

Sorry to derail Will, I hate being the guy telling the other guy how to spend his money. Do what you want with your car, I can't wait to see how she looks when you finally get all of your suspension installed. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Whew, had no idea my simple "I'm lowering my Mustang" thread would turn into such a debate! haha. But it's all good; the suspension on these cars is the one thing I know nothing about, so I'm glad I'm learning something.

It seems that you guys are talking about things that I might consider sometime in the future when I really have a need for it, but I probably won't be doing any of that right now.

Back to the original couple of questions,

1. I'm going to wrap the springs with tape and skip the isos for now. If I don't like it, I'll buy some isos and put them in. Stumbaugh, I'll hit you up on those if I decide to get them in the future.

2 and 3. The shop I'm getting to do my alignment is also going to do my tires. I'm just going to leave the worn out tires on it right now on, do the suspension, then drive the 120 miles to the alignment shop. That way, I'll have a ton of new suspension work, new tires, and an alignment at the same time. Should make for a totally different car!

4. I'm probably going to stick with what I have on the list for now. When the time/money comes, I'll do SFCs, LCAs, and at least the bushings in the UCAs. Only thing I still haven't decided is whether to use the spacer included in the Steeda ball joint kit. I want it raked just a little, not an inch or two lower in the front than the rear.

Thanks for the info guys!

As for the debate: carry on.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Sorry to derail Will, I hate being the guy telling the other guy how to spend his money. Do what you want with your car, I can't wait to see how she looks when you finally get all of your suspension installed. Let me know if you have any questions.

haha, no problem. I enjoy learning, even if it involves the derailment of my thread.

I do have one question. I know you said in a PM a while back that you recommended the X2 ball joints. Did you leave the spacer in or take it out?

 

[N8Dogg98]

The shop I'm getting to do my alignment is also going to do my tires. I'm just going to leave the worn out tires on it right now on, do the suspension, then drive the 120 miles to the alignment shop. That way, I'll have a ton of new suspension work, new tires, and an alignment at the same time. Should make for a totally different car!

Do you have a second set of wheels? The reason I ask is that the alignment shop will clamp the alignment equipment on to the wheels and I would never let a shop align my car with my FR500's installed for fear of damaging the outer rim (they will create small scratches at the very minimum). I kept my stock wheels for this purpose so you may want to consider tossing on some spare wheels. I also think it is a good plan to get all of the suspension installed first before getting an alignment though.

4. I'm probably going to stick with what I have on the list for now. When the time/money comes, I'll do SFCs, LCAs, and at least the bushings in the UCAs. Only thing I still haven't decided is whether to use the spacer included in the Steeda ball joint kit. I want it raked just a little, not an inch or two lower in the front than the rear.

Sounds like a good plan Will, as far as the spacer is concerned I have no idea because I haven't installed ball joints yet, but everything I've heard is positive about the Steeda X2 joints.

 

[tomustang]

People frequently regurgitate that same mantra about the upper control arms binding...

It's not people, it real people who tracked their cars, tested out products, learned the hard way. The noodle of a mustang platform sucks, it's not rocket science. this is a botched chassis that based off the fairmont with weak links everywhere. One of biggest being the upper control arms, 4 link is junk, having the uppers do miracles is not an option. With wind-up, side-to-side, and up-and-down movement you do not want to stiffen what's already there. Why do you think the real racing companies (not UPR ) bypass the upper and go with 3 or 5 link system.

but my own personal experience (as well as what Stumbaugh mentioned above) has proven that a quality set of uppers & lowers tremendously improves the overall handling of the car, not just straight line acceleration.

You know what they say about opinions right? And when you say quality, I still see complaints about their products not being good.

I'm truly sorry to hear that we've lost you as a subscriber. We like to share our passion for Mustangs with as many people as possible.

However, I'm certain that your granatelli comment is an exaggeration. Steve Turner wouldn't risk offending anyone by calling one company's product "the best out there."

What do you think I make this stuff up? That's the thing about Advertisers, they can say what they want because they pay your bills.

Itake on it is that OF COURSE MM doesn't want you to run upper control arms. They want you to buy their torque arm and panhard bar!!

I know you didn't refer to me on that but I'll answer anyway. Forget MM on the equation, Look at Griggs, Where's the upper arms? There is none. They don't play the bs game. Look at Steeda to an extent, they have Boxed Factory style Rubber replacements for a reason, they even have 5 Link systems

To add, MM's research must be bunk right? Since others follow suit and build similar designs. Their 3 piece bushings in the rear sure took.

 

[Stumbaugh]

Exactly what I was saying. Thanks for the info!




That car does look good. Reminds me of a car I featured in 5.0 Mustang a few months ago:

^^UPR Pro Series suspension front and rear. That's a very smooth and comfortable street/strip car. (runs low 9s in the quarter)

March of 2011 issue.

That car looks absolutely sick.

That fox of your's looks sick to. Keep up the good work

 

[Sharad]

It's not people, it real people who tracked their cars, tested out products, learned the hard way..

What am I, chopped liver? I started working on Fox Mustangs 25 years ago, before I could legally drive. I've been racing Mustangs for 19 yrs. I've owned over 30 of them. I've drag raced, road raced, and autocrossed them. When I give advice, I reference my own personal experience, not what I heard from someone else.

...real racing companies (not UPR )...

UPR Products has won countless championships. You'll be hard pressed to find a suspension company with a better record. I supposed you're disqualifying their racing pedigree because they're knuckle dragging straight liners?

 

[slayerripkdc]

Sneaky98gt...... whoa, whoa, whoa, lol . You have a blower on your car? You also run it down the track, and you DO NOT have subframes already??????? Full length subframe connectors should be the FIRST mod you do!

 

[tomustang]

What am I, chopped liver? I started working on Fox Mustangs 25 years ago, before I could legally drive. I've been racing Mustangs for 19 yrs. I've owned over 30 of them. I've drag raced, road raced, and autocrossed them. When I give advice, I reference my own personal experience, not what I heard from someone else.

Good for you

UPR Products has won countless championships. You'll be hard pressed to find a suspension company with a better record. I supposed you're disqualifying their racing pedigree because they're knuckle dragging straight liners?

They also have countless one time customers who received junk parts, that hasn't changed. But anyway the reference was to OT/Autox, not 'knuckle dragging straight liners'

 

[sneaky98gt]

Sneaky98gt...... whoa, whoa, whoa, lol . You have a blower on your car? You also run it down the track, and you DO NOT have subframes already??????? Full length subframe connectors should be the FIRST mod you do!

Haha, EVERYONE says do SFCs, and how great they are, and how much better the car feels with them. I understand that they stiffen the car up, and I don't doubt it one bit that it makes the car 'feel' better, but what exactly does that 'feel' feel like? haha, I hope I made sense there.

Besides, I'm getting the same shop to install FLSFCs that's going to be installing my 3.73s in just a short while.

 

[N8Dogg98]

I understand that they stiffen the car up, and I don't doubt it one bit that it makes the car 'feel' better, but what exactly does that 'feel' feel like? haha, I hope I made sense there.

You made perfect sense.... the feel is like when you plant the pedal she just jumps off the line in a very linear fashion... w/o SFC's it seems like the body winds up first before moving forward if that makes sense

I also really notice it when going over bumps or up a driveway. The car just feels much more solid and attached firmly to the pavement

 

[sneaky98gt]

You made perfect sense.... the feel is like when you plant the pedal she just jumps off the line in a very linear fashion... w/o SFC's it seems like the body winds up first before moving forward if that makes sense

I also really notice it when going over bumps or up a driveway. The car just feels much more solid and attached firmly to the pavement

Ah ok, gotcha. So it feels a little more controlled when going over a bridge in a curve, or something like that? If so, I need to do them now! Between the car feeling like it moves 6 inches laterally over bumps around a curve, and the combination of worn out tires and rain, I was seriously paranoid out driving earlier tonight. It felt so loose in the rear.

Also, where are the pictures of your car with the FR500s like in your sig pic? I know you have some good ones, but I can't seem to find them atm. Still trying to decide about the spacers in the X2s.