Adjusting valves on 302 with hydralic lifters

PoppyMod · Jul 11, 2011

sparx said:
Ok let me see if I can list all that has been done and what is planned.

Note that the piston goes up to TOP DEAD CENTER twice throughout the 4-cycles. With the way the crank is laid out, #3 & #5 are at TOP DEAD CENTER at the same time, also true for #4 & #7, #2 & #8, and #1 & #6. In theory and depending on the cam design, there could be several options for firing order in this engine. It's simply a matter of choice (chosen by the cam/engine designer) of which of the 2 pistons that are AT TOP DEAD CENTER, at the same time, are at the top of the compression stroke or at the top of the exhaust stroke. Luckily, small block Ford engines only use one of the 2 choices you listed and the only big issue is making sure that your ignition (spark plug wires) is set up for your particular firing order. What the reason is behind the 2 different firing orders is a mystery to me, but other folks here, smarter than me, might be able to explain. Relax, you are good to go.

Quoting Horseballz above because this is what I was thinking but did not know how to express it, so I think I am good with the cam I have and the firing order of 1 3 7 ...

The machinist got the push rods, I purchased the Roller Rocker arms from Summit. They are: Hi Tech Pro magnum Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rocker Arms.
Summit part number: CCA 1331-16. (1.6 3/8)

My engine is an external balanced type. The machine shop balanced it, I provided the new flex plate and harmonic balancer, both new.

The block does have the "spider" on top (under intake manifold).

sparx

OK Bud,
Don't worry about which pistons are at top dead center at the same time as it's not neccessary, in of itself. Your valve adjustments will start with #1 piston at TDC (0) with the pointer opposite the (0) on the balancer. those two lifters will be deep in their bores, relative speaking. If you want really make this a learning process, Install the distributor alighning the rotor to # 1 position of the cap at the same time. Then, after adjusting # 1's valves, rotate the dizzy to the next firing position (#3) and adjust the valves of that cyl. and so on til your finished. Rotate the crank back to # 1 again, your rotor should be pointing to #1 plug position and both # 1 valves should be closed. Pull the dizzy , install the intake "do not" let the dog or cat rotate the crank before re-installing the dizzy, insure, it is pointing to #1 again.
Hope this helps!

sparx · Jul 11, 2011

Yes Pops that helps.
I did want to put the dist in to do what you spec'd in the post.

I have the old dist from the 289, still overwhelmed with the choices for a new unit. The old one is not going to be used, and I know I need a steel gear for this engine.

All posts are appreciated- TY Guys

sparx

PoppyMod · Jul 11, 2011

sparx said:
Yes Pops that helps.
I did want to put the dist in to do what you spec'd in the post.

I have the old dist from the 289, still overwhelmed with the choices for a new unit. The old one is not going to be used, and I know I need a steel gear for this engine.

All posts are appreciated- TY Guys

sparx

OK, I understand about the gear thing. You're only going to use it for reference anyway. Doing this will insure your new dizzy will, or should, drop in easily, as well. You are no going to harm anything by using it as a guide.

sparx · Jul 11, 2011

PoppyMod said:
OK, I understand about the gear thing. You're only going to use it for reference anyway. Doing this will insure your new dizzy will, or should, drop in easily, as well. You are no going to harm anything by using it as a guide.

Right!

rbohm · Jul 11, 2011

jlangholzj said:
roller lifters......your slipping in your old age

out of curiosity whenever i adjust flat tappets as outlined above ^ I'll usually skip the extra 1/2 turn and then just listen to the valves with a tube to get my lash set. Even though they're rollers could you still do that? I'm assuming no because there's all sorts of reasons why a roller is in fact a roller setup and so forth....jsut trying to expand my horizons

listen here you arrogant little whippersnapper, er i mean my young friend, it actually doesnt matter if the tappets are roller or flat, you adjust them the same way.

sparx · Jul 11, 2011

Ok thanks

I finally got a fellow on the phone, friend of my neighbor, working at FORD dealer and he verified what you guys have told me and that I am in an OK position.

I cannot get the machinist on the phone (no need anyway now), but I am getting comfortable with what Ihave, what to do and how to verify the firing order because I just need to defuse my concerns, just my nature.

I had this engine built up almost two years ago now, got ill, so lots of time has passed since then and I have forgotten some things.

sparx

jlangholzj · Jul 11, 2011

rbohm said:
listen here you arrogant little whippersnapper, er i mean my young friend, it actually doesnt matter if the tappets are roller or flat, you adjust them the same way.

well now that I've had that answered a few times to be correct, I'll throw this little tidbit of information in as well.

see me being a broke college kid and all, I never really had access to as many tools as i wanted to. basicaly whatever pops had in the garage. Which, i will admit was pretty good but a few of these specialty tools always aluded me. One thing that my grandpa taught me was that If you're having issues with adjusting the valves, leave em loose and then adjust it running. Now before you go all on me, just wait a second.

Go through and take all the slack out of the lifters that don't have load in them, and keep rotating the assembly untill you can do such. Then once the motors in the car and ready to go, pop one of the valve covers off and put some rags down around it so you don't spill oil everywhere and then with the engine running you can both feel with your fingers or HEAR the lifter tick by putting a rubber hose on the end of the valve rocker and holding it up to your ear, kind of like a stethoscope. Then all you have to do is keep adjusting out the lifter untill it doesn't tick anymore.

I ended up doing this on a couple SBF motors because even after following the EXACT procedure in the shop manual, it was too much preload and as a result the car wouldn't run. because once the lifters pumped up, the valves wouldn't actually ever seat fully.

all this gained knowlege and asking questions is good, but the reason why i was curious where/who you got the motor from is that it seems like they're being a real PAIN which is unfortunate. Its alot easier to see all of this and talk about it vs. reading and so forth and then trying to go back to the car. if you can, talk to a couple guys that you might know locally that are "car guys" or someone reputable with their own shop. In either case It'll be nice to have someone who knows alot about it.

The reason why I say this is that I see alot of one of my buddies in you in a good way! smart guy, in the army, also a EE but never had exposure to the car world like i did. well...3 years after he helped me swap the C4 out of my 68' and we're 3/4 the way done with a 68 camaro for him (oops...said that bad word here ) that needed sheet metal replacement, did a motor build up and the whole 9 yards.

don't get discouraged, but find someone to help, you'll get sucked in like the rest of us sure enough

rbohm · Jul 12, 2011

jlangholzj said:
see me being a broke college kid and all, I never really had access to as many tools as i wanted to. basicaly whatever pops had in the garage. Which, i will admit was pretty good but a few of these specialty tools always aluded me. One thing that my grandpa taught me was that If you're having issues with adjusting the valves, leave em loose and then adjust it running. Now before you go all on me, just wait a second.

Go through and take all the slack out of the lifters that don't have load in them, and keep rotating the assembly untill you can do such. Then once the motors in the car and ready to go, pop one of the valve covers off and put some rags down around it so you don't spill oil everywhere and then with the engine running you can both feel with your fingers or HEAR the lifter tick by putting a rubber hose on the end of the valve rocker and holding it up to your ear, kind of like a stethoscope. Then all you have to do is keep adjusting out the lifter untill it doesn't tick anymore.

good information. and yes it is better to leave them a bit loose than get them too tight. usually when i do the initial adjustment, i go the 1/2 because i have found that the full turn that is sometimes recommended is a bit tight. and i do a final adjustment with the engine running. instead of putting rags around the bottom part of the head, get yourself an old valve cover and cut it in half, and bolt the lower half in place of the good valve cover, and run the valves on one side. then do the other side the same way. that way you dont have a bunch of oil soaked rags laying around.

jlangholzj · Jul 12, 2011

rbohm said:
instead of putting rags around the bottom part of the head, get yourself an old valve cover and cut it in half, and bolt the lower half in place of the good valve cover, and run the valves on one side. then do the other side the same way. that way you dont have a bunch of oil soaked rags laying around.

you old boys always have all the cool tricks

sparx · Jul 17, 2011

Bigger problems with my engine!

I had a semi retired FORD mechanic, and a car nut and race driver as well, stop by yesterday to look at my engine and to assist with the rocker adjustments.

Turns out that the engine builder I used has done me some wrong. The rocker rod guides are not symmetrical over the rod holes so the rollers are not parallel and therefore the rollers are not setting on top of the valve stems as they should squarely.

I think an angel or spirit has been looking over my shoulder recently when I had issues about the way this looked to me and thus asking Bob to help me out. I thought adjusting the lash would correct this but I was wrong.

Anyway this fellow Bob said yesterday the engine would have destructed itself if I had run it this way.

From the beginning Dwayne of Eastside engines was suppose to have made all these adjustments, but just blew it off and informed me the day I showed to pick up the engine that "I was to do the valve adjustment so I could learn". I said fine, I can handle that.

I originally wanted to use Edelbrock built up heads on this 302, but Dwayne of Eastside talked me into these heads, because it would save me money and that he could build a head up in no time.

So now the geometry of the rods and the rockers are in question, I provided the roller rockers (from Summit) and Eastside provided the heads and all other parts that go into the heads.

Bob the retired mechanic did not like the workmanship on how the crank was ground to balance it and now the build is entirely in question, with good reason.

Looks like I am going to have to get this engine redone for piece of mind by another machine shop, one that knows what they are doing. Bob is hot rod race car owner so he has a fellow in mind that is reliable and good.

I wish I would have held my ground and insisted upon getting the Edelbrock 60329 head set, instead of listening to Dwayne of Eastside and going with his E5020 Edelbrock built up in the shop heads. Edelbrock verified that these are the correct heads for my 302 roller cam engine, circa 1986. I hope the $285.00 roller cam set is still correct, there is a chance that they are wrong and the roller rods (sorry for my incorrect terms) are the wrong length.

My having concerns about this valve adjustment was valid. I was only living in Tucson for 3 years when I sought out an engine builder here back in early 2009. Eastside stated that he builds race car engines all the time, so I hired them.

At this point I wish I had just got a crate engine, but that is history. Tucson is short on quality tech people, and quality restaurants as well- LOL! (I moved here from Chicago, so I miss the pizza and hot beef's to mention a couple) as well as having lots of good tech people around.

So in a way this is a bad thing and a good thing. Good, I did not destroy the engine, bad I need to have it done over and I am almost totally out of interest in continuing this project. I got ill in the middle of all this in 2010 the engine was ready at the end of 2009; then my mother in law got sick and passed, and then in spring 2010 I got hit again with my chronic hives. This is when I tried selling the entire car, motor, etc.

Now I got the hives under control but my brain is being fried by an incompetent machinist!

I will post some images of this rocker issue so you all can see what I am referring to.

Sparx

sparx · Jul 18, 2011

PoppyMod · Jul 18, 2011

sparx said:
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/sparx21/heads.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Hi,
Do you know if those guide plates were provided by eddy. That one intake looks really off ctr. Have you contacted Eddy?

sparx · Jul 18, 2011

PoppyMod said:
Hi,

Do you know if those guide plates were provided by eddy. That one intake looks really off ctr. Have you contacted Eddy?

They are ALL off Pops!

The schmuck machinist got them and installed them as you view them in the image. If he had done what he was hired to do, being installing the rods, rockers, and adjusting the lash this would have been caught. Well maybe...

I am lucky I called in the FORD mechanic to help me with this.

Edelbrock gave a part number today: 9665 which are suppose to be the right guide plates.

sparx

NMEMJCM · Jul 21, 2011

This thread pisses me off because it reminds me of all the B.S I had to go threw when learning as well, and having to deal with shiesty people . But stick with it, learn from it, get better at turning a wrench and build a awsome car. Its worth it, believe me. I was in the same boat as you years ago, Im glad I diddent jump ship.

PoppyMod · Jul 21, 2011

Sparx,

Any resolution with this?

sparx · Jul 21, 2011

PoppyMod said:
Sparx,

Any resolution with this?

Took the engine into a different machinist today. Turns out I have the wrong push rod guides, might be Chevy guides on my motor , maybe the wrong head gaskets, lighter weight rods, and time will tell what else.

Eastside Engines of Tucson never returned my call about the guide plates and other questions I had presented. He never expressed any concerns when I presented the problems to him over the phone on Monday.

So, the engine will be taken apart and evaluated and done properly this time at my expense of course.
sparx

BlownFiveLiter · Jul 21, 2011

Have the new machine shop document all of the problems and get a breakdown of everything they do, to fix the engine that the other shop messed up on. After that, file a small claims suit against the old shop, so you can recoup some, or all of the new expenses.

PoppyMod · Jul 21, 2011

sparx said:
Took the engine into a different machinist today. Turns out I have the wrong push rod guides, might be Chevy guides on my motor , maybe the wrong head gaskets, lighter weight rods, and time will tell what else.

Eastside Engines of Tucson never returned my call about the guide plates and other questions I had presented. He never expressed any concerns when I presented the problems to him over the phone on Monday.

So, the engine will be taken apart and evaluated and done properly this time at my expense of course.
sparx

Hi,
Well, It's not surprising about those guide plates. While you're at it, have them check the type and style of valve seals. I'm not sure what eddy uses, but, if they are anythink similar to Viton posi-seals, then, that's good. Also, be sure to mention the P/R geometry needs to be checked and corrected if needed.
Based on your phone conversation, I would leave nothing to chance. You got some good parts going on there, it's a shame they were not installed correctly in the first place. What a shlock shop!
It's stories like these, that led me to design and assemble my own junk and farm out only the needed heavy maching.
Good Luck!

sparx · Jul 21, 2011

Yes we are noting all that is incorrect. John the current machinist is checking EVERYTHING out, he knows the work that Eastside does so he has a head start on this if you know what I mean.

Well, I am not much for law suits and such, first I want to have the final data in my hand before I take any actions.

I can tell you that my flex plate might be trashed, but again I will know more next week.

And, yes the geometry is being checked as well.

I will post more when I have new info.
TY dudes
Jim

Flyboy60 · Apr 13, 2020

Old post, but what happened in the end?

Adjusting valves on 302 with hydralic lifters

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