AFR and Trickflows: Dyno graphs & street fun.. lets compare shall we?

[dstang01]

Well, that long and informative "thumper heads" thread got me interested in dyno graphs again, and how they relate to fun on the street. If anyone could kindly post the dyno graph to their AFR 165 combo or their trickflow street heat h/c/i, Id like to compare the two and look for some of the traits Grady was talking about.

I have decided on going aluminum heads for my combo as opposed to iron heads, but Im wondering if its worth stepping up to an expensive afr 165/fti/edelbrock combo or opting for the cheaper trickflow h/c/i. To my understanding... the afr setup is very optimized and refined for a streetable 302 (smaller valves, higher velocity), whereas the trickflow setup makes respectable power with more room for expansion (larger valves, more portability). I think Id be happy with either, but Im curious what the graphs look like.. maybe it will aid the decision to have some hard data

 

[final5-0]

I don't know if I'll be able to get up much stuff over the next few days as I got
a lot going on with family and such.

Let me just give you one topic to think about

Many peeps jump to the conclusion the cheaper route is with TFS heads

Fact is that TFS forces you to go with stud mount rr's

Fact is that AFR gives you a choice of ped or stud rr's

I myself, prefer stud mount over ped mount as I like the ease of adjustment
and better high rpm stability of the studs.

Now ... does that mean ped rr's can't be used for a nice combo ... NO

But ... what I'm trying to show is ... compare the two on an equal basis

You can certainly find many have made good power with both choices

Grady

 

[5spd GT]

I can vouch for a couple things, as I am a big Air Flow Research fan.

I love the fact that they are CNC'd, unlike the Trickflow heads you are looking at.

Avg. flow on the intake side for TW (170) is: 199 CFM
Avg. flow on the intake side for AFR 165 is: 194 CFM

Avg. flow on the exhaust side for TW (170) is 142.5 CFM
Avg. flow on the exhaust side for AFR (165) is 148.7 CFM

Add both together, and you are looking at a positive difference with AFR in the lead by 1.2 CFM when comparing both intake and exhaust.

Read this article for more...

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/02/afr/index2.php

Now take the average cross section of the Trickflow 170cc heads and the AFR 165cc heads.

Trickflow - 2.18
AFR - 2.01

The reason the Trickflow has a higher cross section is because the runner length is shorter in the cylinder heads and it has more volume to it.

Extra runner can easily be made up by the intake used. After all, the engine cares about the entire runner length, not just the cylinder head runner length.

This is why picking a good intake to go with it is crucial as well

The Trickflow seems to have the "edge" by many seen standards, but it is not all about flow. The shape and design of the heads is where you make power This is where I believe AFR has the match won, and competes right with the Trickflow and in many cases beats them, despite the "numbers."

Ed Curtis is the man to hook you up with the camshaft, heads, and intake.

I have found a quote from a successful cam grinder:

"The TW design is a failed Pro Stock design that Pontiac tried in the late 1980's. It moves a load of air, but the air is confused and twists and turns. ie, swirl. Swirl is for low piston speeds, emmission friendly applications. It does NOT make power. "

He is alluding to the shape and design of the ports. This is where I see that AFR has got them beat.

You will make more average horsepower and torque with an FTI combination, but the trickflow is a great beginner kit that will give you good power as well

 

[ga94gt]

I would like to see compairisons between the AFR/FTI/intake and TW/FTI/inake.

Because compairing an off the shelf cam to a custom cam does not make sene. I am just curious how the TW's would do with a custom cam, and if the graphs on hp and tq curves would look near the same.

I think that would be a more level playing field if the TW setup had a custom cam.

 

[The O.G.]

beginers kit? trick flow = playschool

i always liked the afr heads,but a bit pricey

like the the man said peds or studs rr

tfs,studmount rockers $1300
afr,ped $1300/ STUDS $1500 ROUGHLY SPEAKING $200 give or take


:OT: i wonder if afr will make an intake at some point?

 

[final5-0]

Here is the only TFS kit I got that has the street heat intake

I found two AFR FTI combos that had the Performer intake which is Edel's
longest runner upper which would be a fair comparison

I went a head and did both AFR FTI combos so you could see any
differences

The obvious differences is in the low end and I'd say that had to do
with the shorty headers. Notice this is in the 15 to 20 #'s range.

I would mention the TFS combo has a STD cal and it might be a tad more
elevated with its results than the other two that has the SAE cal

Grady

 

[final5-0]

OK Guys

Lets look at this a bit differently this time

The focus here is NOT on peak values but on different intakes

First thing is a consideration or two about my little shown GT here

1) Note on my combo the STOCK or OEM tb, maf, & catback were in place
2) I also have all emissions equipment in place along with a cat h mid pipe
3) I was at the max limit of the little OEM meter at 4.9xx volts

All in all ... This is a pretty fair comparison as I know Dave had his spark
curve very similar to mine. Also, note each combo was done with a SAE
dyno cal.

A rule of thumb on intakes is ......

longer runner gives better low end but high end suffers
shorter runner gives better high end but low end suffers

Looking at the tq curves .........
you see I did not suffer until about mid range rpm

The mid range is the largest difference

While the upper range is not to different

Looking at the hp curves .......
notice the upper end where Dave starts to fall at 5500

I as well start the decline at 5500 but the rate of fall is less

I'd submit to you what you see here is the trend of the different intakes

For what it is worth

Since my baseline pull seen in this chart .........
I've moved up to a FMS 65mm tb and a ProM 80mm meter

While I don't have any hard data

I can tell you the gain starts to be noticeable at mid range and becomes
stronger as the rpm's climb to 6200 where I usually call it quits.

Grady

 

[DDSTANG94]

I dont get why the preformer has higher peak numbers in the upper rpms, i do notice the performer's power starts to drop, and the prefomer rpm maintains its power past 5500 rpm's, but the prefomer rpm should have higher peak numbers from like 5k rpms and up right??

 

[final5-0]

Well ... Lets build upon that last chart

Lets just see what a bit of porting might do

Notice Jake has his intake ported

Also notice it is the longest runner upper ... the Performer

A pretty fair comparison between Hairy & Jake with a lot similarities
and same dyno cal too !!!

Notice low end tq of Jake is a bit less than Hairy ....
I'd think that could be the porting

Notice tq at 4400 things start to change ....
I'd think you're starting to see the effects of the porting

Notice hp of Jake starts to fall at 5500 .....
I'd think his choice of longer runner is making itself made known here

Grady

 

[95Vert]

Have you guys not heard about Canfield's? I don't have any hard info on them, but I keep reading more and more about them and every owner seems to love their performance. You may want to look those up.

 

[final5-0]

I dont get why the preformer has higher peak numbers in the upper rpms, i do notice the performer's power starts to drop, and the prefomer rpm maintains its power past 5500 rpm's, but the prefomer rpm should have higher peak numbers from like 5k rpms and up right??

Its all about the ability to flow

At higher rpm's ... You need to be able to pass a lot of air

Hairy tb ............ 75mm
Final tb ............. oem 60mm

Hairy maf .......... 80mm
Final maf ........... oem 70mm

Hairy cb ............. after market
Final cb .............. oem

Hairy mid pipe .... or x
Final mid pipe ..... catted h

Would you think my combo is a bit more restricted than Hairy's
thus
From the mid range on ... I'm kinda runnin outta breath here

That is the reason I was trying to point out .....
the focus in this little example here should not be on peak values

Anyway ... if others see my reasoning as being off track

Don't feel like you are gonna hurt my feelings or anything like that

I mean ... I certainly don't have all the answers

I only have so much hard data to work with here my friends so we kinda
have to work with what little I got

Its my intention here to share things that might allow others to see things
from a bit different perspective with these side by side charts

I do know these little comparisons are not exactly 100% accurate
but it is much better than .........
things you HEAR that is passed around and around
or
things you see on the sites (internet myth)
with NOTHING substantial to back up the opinions or claims

Anyway ... feel free to offer any kind of input that comes to mind

Grady

 

[DDSTANG94]

Its all about the ability to flow

At higher rpm's ... You need to be able to pass a lot of air

Hairy tb ............ 75mm
Final tb ............. oem 60mm

Hairy maf .......... 80mm
Final maf ........... oem 70mm

Hairy cb ............. after market
Final cb .............. oem

Hairy mid pipe .... or x
Final mid pipe ..... catted h

Would you think my combo is a bit more restricted than Hairy's
thus
From the mid range on ... I'm kinda runnin outta breath here

That is the reason I was trying to point out .....
the focus in this little example here should not be on peak values

Anyway ... if others see my reasoning as being off track

Don't feel like you are gonna hurt my feelings or anything like that

I mean ... I certainly don't have all the answers

I only have so much hard data to work with here my friends so we kinda
have to work with what little I got

Its my intention here to share things that might allow others to see things
from a bit different perspective with these side by side charts

I do know these little comparisons are not exactly 100% accurate
but it is much better than .........
things you HEAR that is passed around and around
or
things you see on the sites (internet myth)
with NOTHING substantial to back up the opinions or claims

Anyway ... feel free to offer any kind of input that comes to mind

Grady

gotcha..... i didnt even think of the stock parts you had on there....

I think we can all agree these comparisons help alot of people, 100% or not..

A while ago i couldn't decide what cam i wanted to use, then u posted one of these carts with different off the shelf cams vs. customs cams, the info helped me make the decision to go custom....so i appreciate that...

 

[final5-0]

Have you guys not heard about Canfield's? I don't have any hard info on them, but I keep reading more and more about them and every owner seems to love their performance. You may want to look those up.

I've seen the Canfield's put up some good numbers

IIRC ... those heads are not emissions compliant

Grady

 

[95Vert]

I personally, don't have to worry about emissions, so I don't mind that.

 

[final5-0]

Just for fun

With a focus on NA and STREET application

I took all my Iron and Aluminum head dyno files and sorted them by rwhp
I then filtered >289 to <376 rwhp for a total of 38 files
I then pulled strokers, blowers, and race type combos which were 10
I then pulled combos with reduced accessories which were 4

That left us with 24 combos that fit our main focus group

Now ... Take a look at this group and notice these considerations

1) I don't know EVERYTHING about these combos so there very well could be
a bit of funny business in place that could inflate the dyno results such as
short belt, inflated rear tire pressure, etc.

2) Some have no known Dyno Calibration and others are clearly stated
to be done with a STD cal which is usually a bit higher than SAE.

3) The tune can make such a difference and there is only one combo in
that list I can attest to knowing the REAL story about.

4) It should be obvious that all the ?'s you see could really make a
difference but ... you work with what you are given when it comes
to data info.

Never the less ...........

You can see within the confines of our application and from what I got .......
This is what peeps did to achieve this level of performance

btw ... the averages of the main group is ... 304rwhp & 326rwtq

Last thing here is ... a bit of a disclaimer

I included names in this grouping so I hope I didn't offend anyone

Grady

 

[final5-0]

Well Now

Lookie Here

It just so happens that the top two entries
from our little example group above of NA/Street combos

Well ... it kinda turned out ... the two most popular heads
which were TFS and AFR were used

I thought it might be fun to see them ... Side by Side

btw ... This gives me a perfect opportunity to plainly illustrate
how
Peak rwhp dyno values you might see written in text

Well ... Unless you can see the curves

You ain't ah lookin ... At the big picture ... Pardner

Grady

 

[5spd GT]

Canfields are nice, but I do not like the 2 year marketing plan "they" have been doing and how "they" have been doing it.

Those heads have been around for YEARS, and now they become popular because of some "creative" marketing.

I still think the CNC AFRs are the better bet.

Those dyno number comparisons are nifty Keep in mind, that there are custom camshaft differences depending on the goal asked. One FTI cam is not the same as another FTI cam That can create the variances.

Jake had around 25,000 miles on his shortblock.

 

[95Vert]

Canfields are nice, but I do not like the 2 year marketing plan "they" have been doing and how "they" have been doing it.

Those heads have been around for YEARS, and now they become popular because of some "creative" marketing.

Creativity is directly related to marketing, so I guess it works out. The results seem to be there and since they're not as popular as the AFR and TFS, they sell for less.

By 'they', I know who you mean.

 

[5spd GT]

Creativity is directly related to marketing, so I guess it works out. The results seem to be there and since they're not as popular as the AFR and TFS, they sell for less.

By 'they', I know who you mean.

I knew you would know. I do not hide it to well

Last time I checked, according to "they's" website, they are $1400. Seems like they are right in between those TF and AFR heads.

Are all the Canfield heads CNC'd? I do not think so, right? (Honest question)

All of the AFR heads are CNC'd.

Canfield used to have issues, but they appear that they have fixed them.

From my awareness, I have never seen a mass-produced problem with AFR heads. They are probably the only head I have not seen this with.

 

[95Vert]

I knew you would know. I do not hide it to well

Last time I checked, according to "they's" website, they are $1400. Seems like they are right in between those TF and AFR heads.

Are all the Canfield heads CNC'd? I do not think so, right? (Honest question)

When I've read about these heads, they do state that they're are CNC'd, but I'm not 100% sure if all of their models are.

Directly from Jay's site, " CNC profiled combustion chamber standard", but others are Full CNC'd directly from Canfield.

One of the cool things about them is that they come with springs to match the cam, I'm not sure if AFR/TFS does that. Do they? (honest question)