anybody heard of running a bit hotter when running rich

from:
http://www.2carpros.com/makes/toyota/tercel.htm

The last post.


Because of the extremely poor gas mileage, it would lead us to believe that there is something wrong with the carburetor or some other sensor on the engine that is telling the carburetor to run rich. Have your computer scanned for fault codes, which should pinpoint your problem. The extra gasoline will generate excessive heat in the engine, which will aggravate you overheating problem. By the way, has anyone checked for a blown head gasket?
 
i have done a compression test and got persistant results although only around 145 psi. it has very little miles on the engine and i have been told that the rings may not be run in yet. this is an 89 with no sensors other than the temp sensor and i am not using a stock gauge although a cheap one. i don't have a regulator on my carb and edelbrock recomends only 5.5 psi for the 1406 carb. how much i am running is unknown. i have 2 cheap electric pumps. if i run only 1 the car will run lean on top end and misfire badly. so i put 1 more on it that was given to me and it didn't cut out anymore but ran rich but now it cuts out when first pushing some gas and when cruising in 5th it really cuts out. no oily water or vise versa though. it still runs very strong otherwise.
 
QDR - graduate school - you're braver than I.

I think what I was responding to was this exchange --

I said "Pretty good rule of thumb - richer - cooler combustion temperatures; leaner - hotter combustion temperatures."

You said in reply "Mike, I'm really sorry but that's absolutely not so."

Hard to misinterpret that exchange from where I'm sitting. And the 'rule of thumb' seems to be a sound one - all else equal, the richer the mixture, the cooler the combustion temps; the leaner the mixture the hotter the temps. Pretty straightforward whether one believes it or not.
 
As for the HotRod article - we're talking about two different things. Combustion temp vs. operating temp. My opening comment was aimed exclusively at combustion temps. Quote from the article "A rich carburetor idle circuit can also contribute to low-speed overheating. The rich fuel mixture tends to keep burning as the exhaust leaves the port, contributing to a hotter cylinder head." Here's my question - how can the rich mixture keep burning when by definition rich means there's not enough O2 to oxidize the remaining fuel?
 
Oh - and, I wouldn't run too far with everything HotRod puts out there. I'm a subscriber, and it seems at least 3 or 4 times a year they do some test/comparo where they continue to tell people that a certain combo is ok on piston to valve clearance with cams up to X lift. They concentrate MUCH more on being sure their revenue-generating advertisements are visible, and the photography of their car shoots is world class, then they do on their technical prowess.
 
From the same page:

“Question: 1983 Toyota Tercel 3A mileage: 150k+. I live in Flagstaff, Arizona, Elevation 7000 feet. First question: The car gets poor fuel mileage and I believe is running very rich (strong exhaust smell). The spark plugs are always fowling. I have been told it needs to be Altitude Adjusted. Would that help and how would I do that? Second question: In the winter the water temperature never gets warm enough for the heater to work. Do I need to install a different thermostat and what kind?”

Wow, so rich that he can smell the unburnt gasoline, yet it’s running too cold!. Even if the article is correct, it still doesn’t support your theory. How many people in this thread have had their car running rich without overheating the engine? Consistent with the information contained in the posed question, I drove my Shelby to the same place described above with 72 jets. The car was running so rich that it was difficult to keep running. Just like the car mentioned above, it ran cold.

This wouldn’t be the first time that I’ve seen the writings of magazine editors defy the basic laws of physics. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it doesn’t take an engineering or any other degree to write for a magazine.

With regard to the fuel continuing to burn in the exhaust ports, it is true that an air pump is commonly used to oxidize the remaining unburnt hydrocarbons. They don’t, however, reignite and burn. Even if the remainder were to reignite, the surface area in an exhaust port is less than that of the cylinder and the velocity is higher, so there would be less transfer of heat, even if the temperatures were the same, which they are not. With regard to your theory that the cylinder pressures would be too too high, that’s absolutely absurd, at part throttle, the cylinders are under filled, not over filled.

A rich mixture would indeed cause an engine to run hotter, providing that it was rich enough to hydraulic the cylinder and crack the block, otherwise, a richer mixture will nearly always cause an engine to run cooler. Ever adjust a natural gas heater? The leaner the mixture, the more blue the flame becomes, the richer the mixture, the more orange the flame. The wavelength of the light is inversely proportional to the molecular energy, or heat, of the combustion.

With regard to your motorcycle running hot, the engine will run hotter because the density of air at high elevations is lower, it therefore has less heat capacity. On moving-air cooled systems, this will make little difference since the thermal time constant of heat conduction limits the transfer of heat. On a motorcycle, where there is little or no airflow, the cooling is dependent only on the density of the air and emissive transfer. Higher altitudes typically also have lower humidity, which further lowers the heat capacity and therefore lowers the cooling efficiency of the air. Cause and effect, see how that works ?

With regard to the particular engine in question, I have a few questions: Was the carb originally used on an EGR equipped vehicle? If so, it will run rich without the EGR. On an Edelbroch or Carter carburetor, the power valve is integrated into the needle and seat. The needles occasionally stick, and when they do, it’s almost always in the high-flow position. A leak between cylinders could also force the piston used to modulate the needles too far into its bore.
 
baskin said:
From the same page:

A rich mixture would indeed cause an engine to run hotter, providing that it was rich enough to hydraulic the cylinder and crack the block.

That's pretty much where I'm going. It's hard to find a good article that addresses exactly what I'm talking about. What you are saying is the extreme side of what I'm impling. Its possible and happens. There are limits to everything. For example you can run a little lean indefinitely and you can run substantially rich as well but at some point too lean will burn you up and too rich will do the same. You said it yourself. As for the motorcycle comments you are also right and in agreement with me. You said at high altitude air density drops. If your bike is jetted for the low desert and you go on a ride that takes you to nearly 8000 feet your bike could, and sometimes does, run rich and overheat but usually the plug fouls before anything catastrophic occurs. I’m hearing what you’re saying about heat capacity etc. but the fact remains the same- the excess fuel is causing the heat. We have had to re-jet bikes on the trail (once…). Anyway, my time is limited and I can only reply sparingly but I will find some more credible article(s) etc to post. I admit the Hot Rod article is a little bogus!
 
"but the fact remains the same- the excess fuel is causing the heat. "

It's simply not correct. But I suspect we'll all just have to agree to disagree on this one as we've collectively ridden the horse (no pun intended) as far as we can. Have a great weekend all!
 
Michael Yount said:
2) the coolant boiling point is lowered because of the atmospheric pressure change at altitude

I don't think this is correct. Vapor pressure would be reduced for a liquid open to atmospheric pressure, but the cooling system is not. Coolant pressure is maintained by spring force which is not subject to atmospheric changes. Engines run hotter at higher altitudes simply because of the reduced air mass flowing through the radiator fins. Same way a mass air meter's element is cooled down more by a denser airflow.
 
Michael Yount said:
Here's my question - how can the rich mixture keep burning when by definition rich means there's not enough O2 to oxidize the remaining fuel?
Fuel isn't burned completely when it is rich, it burns slower. Which is why EEC controlled engines richen the mixture as the engine gets too hot; it slows the rate of burn to lessen chances of detonation.

BUT I am not saying either lean is hotter or rich is hotter cause at this point I'm pretty well screwed up on that.
 
You're not picking on me Ray - but you do need to brush up on your tech. Vapor pressure is an entirely different phenomenon. And the total pressure acting on a system is called the absolute pressure; it's equal to the gauge pressure PLUS the atmospheric pressure. Gauge pressure measures the pressure inside the cooling system. It remains relatively constant. Atmospheric pressure changes with altitude; consequently absolute pressure changes with altitude - as does the boiling point of the system.
 
Also Ray, the rate at which fuel burns in the chamber is a function of the octane rating of the fuel, cylinder pressure and the efficiency of the ignition source and the effectiveness of the mixing of fuel and air in the chamber. It's virtually unaffected by the richness or lean-ness of the mixture. In a rich situation, the fuel that can be oxidized does so, the remaining fuel, which can't burn because there's no oxygen left, absorbs some of the heat of combustion - which is why rich combustion temps are always cooler than lean combustion temps.
 
QDRHRSE said:
baskin said:
From the same page:

A rich mixture would indeed cause an engine to run hotter, providing that it was rich enough to hydraulic the cylinder and crack the block.

That's pretty much where I'm going. It's hard to find a good article that addresses exactly what I'm talking about. What you are saying is the extreme side of what I'm impling. Its possible and happens. There are limits to everything. For example you can run a little lean indefinitely and you can run substantially rich as well but at some point too lean will burn you up and too rich will do the same. You said it yourself. As for the motorcycle comments you are also right and in agreement with me. You said at high altitude air density drops. If your bike is jetted for the low desert and you go on a ride that takes you to nearly 8000 feet your bike could, and sometimes does, run rich and overheat but usually the plug fouls before anything catastrophic occurs. I’m hearing what you’re saying about heat capacity etc. but the fact remains the same- the excess fuel is causing the heat. We have had to re-jet bikes on the trail (once…). Anyway, my time is limited and I can only reply sparingly but I will find some more credible article(s) etc to post. I admit the Hot Rod article is a little bogus!


How could you have possibly not seen the sarcasm in my statement with regard to cracking the block?! The amount of gasoline necessary to hydraulic the cylinder would obviously also result in a mixture that would be nearly impossible to ignite.

My reference to the motorcycle plainly indicated that it was a limitation in the process of heat removal, not excessive heat generation that caused the overheating problem. If you believe that we're in agreement, then you clearly don’t comprehend what I have written.
 
Michael Yount said:
You're not picking on me Ray - but you do need to brush up on your tech. Vapor pressure is an entirely different phenomenon. And the total pressure acting on a system is called the absolute pressure; it's equal to the gauge pressure PLUS the atmospheric pressure. Gauge pressure measures the pressure inside the cooling system. It remains relatively constant. Atmospheric pressure changes with altitude; consequently absolute pressure changes with altitude - as does the boiling point of the system.
Right, sorry, equilibrium vapor pressure doesn't change with atmopheric pressure... that would be boiling point. Still, like I said before, the cooling system is spring loaded. It would take a massive loss of atmospheric pressure, such as tossing the car into space, to considerably defeat the spring.

Even if the boiling point ended up 2 degrees lower... how is that going to affect the coolant's heat transfer efficiency?

Also Ray, the rate at which fuel burns in the chamber is a function of the octane rating of the fuel, cylinder pressure and the efficiency of the ignition source and the effectiveness of the mixing of fuel and air in the chamber. It's virtually unaffected by the richness or lean-ness of the mixture.
A chemistry book says otherwise.

In a rich situation, the fuel that can be oxidized does so, the remaining fuel, which can't burn because there's no oxygen left, absorbs some of the heat of combustion - which is why rich combustion temps are always cooler than lean combustion temps.
I disagree. IF the engine runs hotter lean, it is because the explosive rate of reaction causes heat buildup while the piston is still near the top of its travel. By the time the piston moves to a point that the gas can effectively expand against it, a lot of heat has already been absorbed by the engine. With a slower burning reaction, the hottest part occurs when the piston is already on its way down and more of that heat is transferred into work done on the piston.
 
since this horse is dead..... anyone ever tried running plugs with reliefs? basically if the combustion pressures reach a certain threshold, the plug opens up and creates a leak to vent pressure.

since we have all the smart engineer folks in here, i thought i would ask (good idea for forced induction, perhaps, if it would work in theory). :)