Att. All Afr Head owners, afr messed up

[stooges701]

I own a pair of Afr 165s and I have had them for about 1 year with 10,000 miles on them with I thought to be no problems. I tore my engine apart today and found that 3 of my valve seals were broken and I thought that mybe to much cam or somthing on my behalf. Well I tore the head off and took the spring off and and in the process of pulling the valve out I noticed that there was a lot of play in the vlave giude. After doing some measuring I found out that my head as the inccorect valve guides in it but only on three of the cylinders and the fourth one has the correct one in it. One of them is 0.067 play in it. There should only be about 0.03. I have not checked the other head yet as Afr told me not to take it apart. My car still ran and it ran a 12.7 like this. Really wierd but it ran so beware. Will keep up updated on what AFR does for me. Sorry so long
View attachment 346965 ms/q215/stooges701/SD531840.jpg[/IMG]

 

[stooges701]

Correct ones

Oversized Wrong ones

 

[5spd GT]

Yep, you did the correct thing in contacting AFR first. They will take a look at it and determine what caused the problem, or if they made the mistake. If it is the latter, they will compensate you.

It happens to the best of them...

And I emphasize, "best."

 

[Joe95StangGT]

did you have the proper length pushrods in it? Was the rocker in the middle of the valve?

 

[jtfairlane]

This is absolutely NO guarantee that AFR did anything wrong.

Do you know what else causes excessive valve guide wear and variances in valve guide measurements? Improper valvetrain geometry!

Did you measure your pushrod length before assembling your motor. Did you color your valve stem tips and check the sweep of the rocker tip on the valve stem tip? If the answer to either of these questions is no: AFR most likely did nothing wrong.

Improper pushrod length: Excessive valve guide wear

Excessive lifter preload (if hydraulic) or incorrect lash : Excessive valve guide wear.

Rocker tip riding too far on the "intake side" or the "exhaust side" of the valve stem tip with a thick "witness mark", and not a nice thin "witness mark" in the center of the valve stem tip: Excessive valve guide wear.

 

[Fast63]

I think there is an easy way to tell if it was AFR's fault. Put the valve back in, move it around. If it is the wrong valve guide, you should be able to move the valve head and tip both the same way. If you can't, the guide is worn due to some other circumstance and the valve will "rock" in the guide. Basically, the guide doesn't wear evenly, so there is more material in the middle of the guide. I have a hard time believing AFR put the wrong guides in only 3 random valves, and since you have put miles on them, you shouldn't start blaming them until you know for sure.

 

[rossford]

air flow

in the past i have bought air flow heads, in order for them to put big valves in their less then perfect castings they move the valves closer to each other this sometimes throws off rocker angles, things can wear un even, i dont want to bash anyone ,i have had problems with their heads myself,also push rod guides cracking and falling apart - oh they heat treated them wrong.

 

[stooges701]

Yes I know for a fact that I have the right valve train and correct pushrod lengths. If it was worn guides I would see scratches in the cylinder walls, bearings and or find metal in the pan which I found none of these. I also found that they measure up to the same size guides as a bb chevy. I had a shop here in my town look at them as well. He says that usually that if the were to wear that much you see it on the valve stem and the guide will be egg shaped not perfectly round like mine are. He agrees and says the wrong ones were out in the head. It was not just 3 valve guides it was 6 valve guides{3 sets} in one head that was incorrect. The guides are the same size from top to bottom telling me that there not wore they are incorrect.

 

[Fast63]

just so you know, you would NOT see scratches in the cylinder walls, bearings, or find any metal in the pan if there was guide wear going on. The particles come off it such small pieces, you would never be able to see them anywhere, they would be hidden in the oil. Your best bet would be to look for any kind of metallic swirl in your oil when you change it. You better send them to AFR for them to judge and take your own pictures and notes beforehand.

 

[vristang]

I have not checked the other head yet as Afr told me not to take it apart.

This statement concerns me...
AFR doesn't want you to inspect them???


If you can, try to get some production dates from AFR...
That way others who have heads from the same production run can check for the same condition before they have a catastrophic failure.

Not sure if AFR would be willing to share that info though...

Good job tracking this down
Lots of folk wouldn't have 'followed the bread crumbs' that way
(probably including myself...)
jason

 

[5spd GT]

AFR does not want them to inspect them so they will not be tampered with. They will do their own checking.

It makes complete sense.

He already checked one head, and only one head left that has not been taken apart.

You build and ship out thousands of heads, you are going to get a bad bunch.

There is not one company that has not had a problem at one time or another.

Like I said, you did it right by contacting them first

 

[vristang]

AFR does not want them to inspect them so they will not be tampered with. They will do their own checking.

It makes complete sense.

AFR has a solid reputation, and this is the first negative I have ever heard about their quality.
I spent some time working production... I know that stuff happens...

However,
Once you send the parts to AFR, you are completely at their mercy...
All I am saying... Get all the documentation you think you could ever need, BEFORE sending things to AFR.
CYA

Their comment still makes my suspicious... That doesn't mean AFR is doing anything wrong... it just means that I would be suspicious...


Still, the best resolution you can hope for now is to get new guides installed in your existing heads.

Please keep us posted,
jason

 

[stooges701]

I took lots of pics and measurements so they cant try to screw me at all. I also ordered the upgraded valves and springs when I bought the heads so I tested the spring pressure and I wrote down the number off the valves so I what lam getting back. So we will see what happens. And I agree there is not one company out their that does not have mistakes, they happen. No ones perfect I understand that.

 

[8.8mustang]

afr's valve grinds suck as well with there valve springs not surprised to here more bad about them
they make a good head casting one of the better ones they just cheap out the other stuff but you sould alway check over your parts before instaling them

 

[retro50]

Yes I know for a fact that I have the right valve train and correct pushrod lengths. If it was worn guides I would see scratches in the cylinder walls, bearings and or find metal in the pan which I found none of these. I also found that they measure up to the same size guides as a bb chevy. I had a shop here in my town look at them as well. He says that usually that if the were to wear that much you see it on the valve stem and the guide will be egg shaped not perfectly round like mine are. He agrees and says the wrong ones were out in the head. It was not just 3 valve guides it was 6 valve guides{3 sets} in one head that was incorrect. The guides are the same size from top to bottom telling me that there not wore they are incorrect.

The AFR Guides should measure around .343 for their 11/32" valve stem size. They are NOT the same size as a Big Block Chevy. The BBC has a 3/8" stem size making the guide on the BBC around .373 as their valves usually measure .371. Looks like the wrong pushrods were used and the geometry is all screwed up.

 

[Fox8950]

I agree there may have been a mistake made here on AFRs part and not a geometry issue, looking forward to what you find out. If it were a geometry issue that was SOO bad it wore a valve guide from .341 to .408 there would have been other obvious signs/failures besides the fact that its only on SOME holes.