Attempted to get duals today...

Philstang said:

this was at the track, right... lol

Click to expand...

No on the freeway.. LOL!! Just havin some fun..

Not really worth talkin about really..

Finally got it to you that only took a couple weeks lol.

Let me know what you run, just dont beat my 14.86

MSP

Thats so weird, i just raced one of those from a dead stop (supercharged mr2, not turbo) and it wasnt even really close. Maybe he launched bad, or maybe ive just got really good at it

echo7 said:

well i have recieved the GTech, hopefully will find a place to do a 1/4 mile run and will post the results tonight...

Click to expand...

Sweet!! Looking forward to the results Echo7..

Hey guys, getting slightly back on topic Id like to share a post with you from user gnn60gt500, a rep from Magnaflow Performance Exhaust Systems, over on TMS. Anyway, quoting two posts from him on exhaust systems:

Edited: Im quoting SEVERAL posts from him now, and will try to include the appropatie questions asked by other users when necessary. This has provided me with ALOT of valuable information Ive been looking for for a LONG time. It was specific to the GT, but Im positive it remains true for the v6 as well.

ORIGINAL THREAD ON TMS: http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=28036


"Hey guys-

3" is WAY too big for a N/A bolt on 05 Mustang GT-

We have the capability to make up to a 6" exhaust if we wanted to for this car- but we don't and for a good reason-

We dyno tested several 2.5" and 3" systems on various stock and bolt on cars, and the 2.5" provided more power under the curve EVERY time-
Tuning has nothing to do with physics- bottom line

The key to a well functioning exhaust system is maintaining the highest exhaust velocity possible while the least amount of back pressure possible-

The problem with the 3" is while it provides little to know back pressure, your velocity is going to be slow due to the fact that the 3v is just not making the power to push the exhaust through-

which is why the 3" systems are so loud, the sound waves are bouncing through the system very slowly which increases the over all noise of the exhaust system-


Basically, a bolt on 03/04 Cobra does not even need a 3" system- why would an 05 GT?

There is a reason why Bassani, Borla, Magnaflow, Flowmaster dont make 3" exhaust systems for the 05- its not because we can't its becuase you dont need that size exhaust until you are making 650hp-


considering the small number of cars making that kind of power, it is not profitable for any of us to making something like that at this time-

If there were gains in a 3" system, Steeda, Saleen, and Roush would be all over it- yet even on their supercharged cars- they still use 2.5"

This reminds me of all of the guys building these 6" diesel exhausts for Power Strokes- all they say is bigger is better- yet when you talk to Banks- they all laugh at the idea of 6" exhaust and question even a 5" exhaust-


a 3" exhaust will not just move the power band, it will make for a more peaky power band based on our research- 2.5" provides much flatter power curves- which is what you want on a street/track duty car-

This is our theory on the 2.5" vs 3" systems-

[POST #2]
The stock exhaust is actually very good on this car- I would agree-

The reason is the 3V motors are much quieter then the 2V motors-

In fact a 2v with Magnapacks is louder then a 3v with straight pipes based on our research-

For this reason, Ford was really able to open up the facotry exhaust and still have it come under Federal compliance-

Of course there is still some power left with a nice aftermarket system- but gone are the days of seeing 15rwhp with a catback like you did on the 2v cars-

Just a little insight from what we have found based on our time with these cars-

[POST #3 Question from Idrvadodgstr8us "just out of curiosity how restrictive are the two cats on the O.E. setup? (in comparison to the 2v of course)"]

Again, this part of the exhaust is not as restirctive as well-

This is what we have seen-

2v- catback- 14-15rwhp gain
2v- catback and X pipe- 24-25rwhp gain

3v catback- 11rwhp gain
3v catback and X pipe- 19rwhp

So the catbacks on the 2v are gaining about 4-5rwhp more then a 3v and the X pipes are adding another 9-11rwhp while only about 8rwhp on the 3v-

We tried all sorts of tricks to get more power out of the 3vs- but it just wasnt happening- I believe we designed and dyno tested about 30 different exhaust systems on the 05 before we settled on this one-

I also know via working trade shows with many of our competitors and having lunch with them (believe it or not-most aftermarket exhaust companies are actually pretty friendly with each other) we were not the only ones to spend more time then normal on this car-

[Post #4 Question from softbatch "Can you show us the test results? Specifically I am deciding between an off road h or x pipe. I have already decided on Long Tubes with 5/8" primarys."]

Well it really depends on which X pipe you are going to use- some X pipes definitely work better then others-

I would definitely go with an X pipe/ straight through muffler combo though-

Some X pipes only give good gains in the top end over an H, but a well designed one will give you gains across the entire power band over the H pipe-

We make both H pipes and X pipes and after having both of them on my car- power wise- the X wins hands down-

Sound wise, its whatever you like- the H is more classic muscle- the X is more NASCAR- IMO sound wise-

I know many of the NASCAR teams do their own R&D work, and right now most seem to be running a Dr. Gas or a Magnaflow X pipe-

For comparison sakes- my idle jumped up about 150 RPM when I put the X in my 67 - because the car was breathing so much better, the idle went up- of course on new cars you wont see that because a computer controls the idle-


[Post #5]
will provide you with several resources- this is the first-
http://www.magnaflow.com/05news/magazine/0550mustang01.asp
This was an article by 5.0 magazine-

We installed just a catback on a 05 automatic and gained 9-12 rwhp
(it is really hard to give exact numbers as you get a pretty nice power spike with the automatic)

That is not including the X pipe-



This is the dyno sheet for the X pipe and catback-
http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/dynos/15881.jpg

Someone changed the torque numbers on the right in the marketing department so they would match the numbers on the hp scale-

so on the right- the 280 should be 290
the 260 should be 270 and so on.......

sorry- sometime the marketing department tries to fix things that shouldnt really be fixed.......

we get those numbers by using the following procedures-

we check- humidity, temperature, intake manifold temerature, block temperature, exc

we then baseline dyno the car 5 times and run it with the Magnaflow 5 times making sure all variables are equel-

We throw out the highest numbers, the lowest numbers and use the median-

All dyno tests are run on a stock vehicle-

For comparison sakes, we claim 14rwhp on our 99-04 systems, yet many people have seen only 12rwhp gains- and the founder of www.corral.net saw a 16 rwhp gain on a stock 02 GT-

All of our testing is all done on a Dyno-jet dyno-

Ill see if I can find some more dynos as well-

There was one guy who got 12rwhp on a stock car with just a catback and had his dyno posted on the website- but that was almost a year ago so Ill have to see if I can dig it up-

Thanks
Brent


[Post #6]

I cut and copied the post from the other site so you could see it-



I have had the chance to do the same install and the fit and finish is superb. I like the exhaust note and it is noticiably louder both insdie and outside but not obnoxious at all when driving. The Mustang had about 3000 miles on her when she was baselined and then the MagnaFlow 15881 kit was installed. Stock was 253 RWHP and 285 RWTQ. After was between 266-272 RWHP and 290-291 RWTQ. It was a noticable gain and you can see it on the charts but you have to be careful when reading the numbers becasue of the automatic. With the shift spikes it says peak stock power was 285 but in fact you can see its really more like 260-262 and after the exhaust it more like 285-290. The dyno seems to read the highest numbers which are not right. This car was a little tricky because of the 5 speed auto but the most consistant passes are whent he car is allowed to run at Full Throttle for the whole pass, otherwise you get some of these spikes and bumps like Nino said.

If you are looking for louder they have another "Magnapack kit" which has the 4" resonators and is really supposed to give it more exhaust note. I'm waiting to see if someone else gets one of these around here but what i have now is just about right.

Dyno from 2nd gear through 4th (full throttle)
http://home.earthlink.net/~rwaitas/...res/05speed.gif

Dyno of just 4th gear:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rwaitas/...ures/05gear.gif







Here is the thread itself- its towards the top of the second page-

http://64.177.72.121/forums/showthread.php...7247#post97247)


Im going to keep looking and see if I can find more dyno sheets for you-"





[[RESPONSE from Alnoe, the owner of Stainless Works (as I have been told)]]
"I do and dont' agree with the fellow from Magnaflow.

You are right in saying that a 3" exhaust is in reality overkill for the 2005 Mustang if it is stock. But we developed our 3" system because we know that a lot of customers will be adding superchargers, turbos, NOS, etc. As soon as cams come out we know that people will be going crazy with this.

With the same reasoning, why replace any of the factory pipes? It is 2 1/2", CNC mandrel bent s/s. We don't even offer a 2 1/2" system for the '05 Mustang yet as we opted to offer a muffler replacement kit. The factory was nice enough to give us a slip joint into the mufflers. We sell a pair of mufflers, tips, and connector pipes that if the car is completely stock or close, will make more power for less money than putting a complete cat back on. We may do some variety of manifold pipes, but have not gotten into that yet.

We designed our systems by spending a lot of time on the dyno. In theory, the 3" system should make less torque that the 2 1/2" system. In our testing it did not. We also sell 1 5/8" headers and 1 3/4" headers for the '05, and I thought for certian the 1 3/4" headers would KILL low end power on a relatively stock '05. It did not hurt it nearly as bad as I would have thought-about 3--5 ft# down low.

5.0 Mustang just did an article with our headers and confirmed what we tested. The setup is really overkill for a stock or even bolt on car, and you would think that a 1 3/4" header would hurt torque-not true. The car picked up 18 RWHP and 16 FT/# of torque with no tuning to optimize the headers (a reflash was done in the beginning of the article but not after each step). The overall gain was 41RWHP and 40RWT. The really impressive numbers will be when the next step of that project comes together.

So, if you are not going to change anything but the exhaust, buy a muffler replacement kit and don't bother with the factory pipes. If adding headers, bolt ons, etc, the 3" choice may be overkill but it will not hurt torque or horsepower. And if you add a lot more mods or a power adder later, then you are already set.

Lastly, the backpressure of an exhaust is dictated by the size of pipe, x or h pipe and its scavenging effect, and the muffler design. Pipe size alone does not determine what the exhaust velocity will be.

Thanks
Al
Stainless Works"

[Post #7]

Well-

we actually offer muffler replacements as well or axle backs as we call them-


The reason for a full 2.5" exhaust system is that there are several bends we are able to elminate in the factory exhaust system which results in an additional few hp-

Of course we decided as well to offer both-

Really I apologize I should have added a disclaimer in my original post-

All of the facts I provided were based on Magnaflow Mufflers-

Depending on the muffler, those numbers can definitely change- For instance if using a chambered muffler, the switch from 2.5" to 3" can be made much much sooner then with a straight through design muffler-

as a chambered muffler will not flow as well, so you will need to step up the size of exhaust in order to get the reduction in back pressure-

Talking mufflers alone, we have yet to be beat out in any shoot out-

www.mach1registry.com did a shoot out comparing several straight through design mufflers, and not only did we win, but we won by about 6rwhp-

Hot Rodding Engine Masters Challenge- the last several years the 1st and 2nd place winners have claimed to have made more hp with Magnaflow mufflers then any other available-

So, using Magnaflow mufflers, you are much more likely to see a loss in power by switching to 3" too early- as our flow rates are to this point unmatched-


I do have to admit though, when it comes to cars with crazy power, we do not build any systems to target that market- while your 3" system does-

Realistically from a full system point of view, we are not really competitors in my eyes-

You are building exhaust systems for fully built project cars (stroked, supercahrged NMRA fun) - we are building exhaust systems for stock to bolt on cars like Saleen, Roush, Steeda, and so on-

It seems we each have our niche- with our competitve area being that person who has built a car that is more then a bolt on car, but less then a full out race car- as they could go either way-

Out of curiousity though- do you guys build short tube headers that would work with say- our X pipe and catback-

We get alot of people who ask if there is a header we recommend to use with our X pipe and catback- and up to this point I have had nowhere to refer them too- and its always good to know as the only ones I know now are JBA and BBK-
(and those guys at JBA are always trying to switch them over to their full exhaust- maybe you guys will be nicer to us.....lol)





Edit- Boss Hog- the only real problem we see on diesel is that when you step up on the down pipe too much- you can cause the power band to move as the turbo will not spool up as fast-

we suggest a 3.5" downpipe for most applications, however we do offer a 4" downpipe for those with turbo upgrades and so on-


BTW- We in the aftermarket exhaust industry are usually pretty cool with each other- you would probably be suprised at the number of drinks I have bought for Flowmaster/ DynoMax/ FloPro reps and the number or drinks they have bought for me-

when it comes down to it- we are all just trying to make a living- no need to get in a fist fight over a few car parts if you know what I mean-

[Question from Blk05GT "Very interesting discussion since I am looking at headers/exhaust to go along with a blower going on next month.

Is there a certain level of boost/hp where a 3" exhaust would outperform a 2.5" exhaust? I am currently planning on a mild level of boost (5-9psi) and I am unsure what size long tubes (1 5/8 vs 1 3/4) and exhaust to go with. I would like to keep the torque as high as possible."]

[Post #8]
Really you could go either way-

Both Stainless works and ourselves are going to have our reasons why you should go with our system-

it will be up to you to make that choice as you are pretty much right in that are where we would be competing against each other-

Maybe Stainless would be willing to provide you with their tech number, and I will give you mine- that way you can get the facts from each of us and make your decision-

I think that would probably be the best way-
"





This would also explain MSP, why you didnt see the gains you were hoping to by switching exhausts!

Nice post Zodiac.. However, I still feel overall, the SCT tunning must be completed before we can rule on the work I have completed.. But it is some very interesting information.. I would also like to point out that information concerning a 3v GT motor should not be used when discussing our V6's.. Its impossible to compare the 2 motors, especially concerning the exhaust function.. While most insightfull Zodiac, I dont feel the contents of the post matters to us really..

@ALL

Got my wheels today, and man they are sweet in person.. I had no idea the Mach1 SVT wheels chromed would look so nice.. They look so clean my wife is actually anxious to put them on.. She's not even in to wheels, and couldnt understand the need for them.. But once she saw them, she even said "damn those are nice".. LOL!!

I'll get tires soon.. I'm going to go with 275 or 85 -40-17's in the rear, and a 245-45-17 in the front.. Stay tuned gents.. These Mach1 SVT wheels chromed are the wheels to look out for.. Chromed, the wheels are about $232 Ea.. So expect to pay abit more than the Bullits, and the FR500's..

I actually feel like I lucked out getting myself these wheels.. For so long, I was hooked on the Bullits, and the FR500's..

I'll try and get up a pic of one in the box.. Stand by!!

Here ya go guys!! I love'em!! LOL!!

Thems some sweet looking rims MSP. Make sure you post more pics when you get them mounted to your pony. I'm currently looking at the chrome/black Mach I wheels...

so this Thread has gotten of TOPIC.. so ill try to bring it back with a story.. i just got home from going to a Mister Muffler.. I was going to get the dual setuop MSP has.. well i got there fill out all the info tell "the guy" what i wanted.. then he says.. Its against Federal Law to make a True Duel Setup to a car that didnt come with one...is that BS or what?!.. so im pretty mad that i drove all the way into town for that S***

I've heard that before, its like an epa regulation or something. But you are more the able to put an x/h pipe in, dont think thats illegal.

He just came out and said it... how am i supposed to get an awesome sounding/hp and tq gain exhaust now?

they've already done testing that the same gains are from single and dual exhaust. All around the 9rwhp mark.

Mustang05 said:

so this Thread has gotten of TOPIC.. so ill try to bring it back with a story.. i just got home from going to a Mister Muffler.. I was going to get the dual setuop MSP has.. well i got there fill out all the info tell "the guy" what i wanted.. then he says.. Its against Federal Law to make a True Duel Setup to a car that didnt come with one...is that BS or what?!.. so im pretty mad that i drove all the way into town for that S***

Click to expand...

I had a custom exhaust shop also not want to do duels on my V-6 saying the GT mufflers wouldnt fit etc and that they are the same mufflers anyways, thats when i decided just to install the passenger side muffler myself.
i still havent gone to any other shop to get a quote for installing the drivers side and pipe..

I just ordered the JBA dual exhaust bolt-on kit for my V6. I was having a hard time finding a shop that would do what I wanted so decided to take the easy route. Has anyone installed the JBA duals? If so, how are they? After reading all the gorey details about the problems others have had with power loss after installing true duals I would like to know from someone who has the JBA's if they had any torque or power loss problems with them.

I also installed the Steeda CAI kit but found it hard to tell much of a difference. I do get more torque at lower rpm's but can't tell anything else. I'm hoping that with a less restrictive exhaust I will get more of a noticeable power increase. I have to admit that the Steeda CAI with the a custom tune installed with an Xcal2 I get much smoother acceleration over the whole rpm range as compared to stock.

Thanks for any coments about the JBA's.

i wonder if you could buy the gt driver side pipe and hangers then just hav a shop cut it over at the tranny?

MSP said:

Nice post Zodiac.. However, I still feel overall, the SCT tunning must be completed before we can rule on the work I have completed.. But it is some very interesting information.. I would also like to point out that information concerning a 3v GT motor should not be used when discussing our V6's.. Its impossible to compare the 2 motors, especially concerning the exhaust function.. While most insightfull Zodiac, I dont feel the contents of the post matters to us really..

@ALL

Got my wheels today, and man they are sweet in person.. I had no idea the Mach1 SVT wheels chromed would look so nice.. They look so clean my wife is actually anxious to put them on.. She's not even in to wheels, and couldnt understand the need for them.. But once she saw them, she even said "damn those are nice".. LOL!!

I'll get tires soon.. I'm going to go with 275 or 85 -40-17's in the rear, and a 245-45-17 in the front.. Stay tuned gents.. These Mach1 SVT wheels chromed are the wheels to look out for.. Chromed, the wheels are about $232 Ea.. So expect to pay abit more than the Bullits, and the FR500's..

I actually feel like I lucked out getting myself these wheels.. For so long, I was hooked on the Bullits, and the FR500's..

I'll try and get up a pic of one in the box.. Stand by!!

Click to expand...

The wheels look awesome, can't wait to see them on the car.

On a side note, the other night I got to ride in a friend's fox coupe. Modest H/C/I with bolt-ons running 8.09 in the 1/8th. The car isn't making gobs of power but it is LIGHT, 2995 w/out driver. Have any of you guys done any weight reduction on your 05's to offset some of the drag of these heavy cars and let the motor move less mass around? I am convinced that if you could sacrifice/lose 250lbs out of this car it would feel even quicker. But I realize alot of these are daily drivers.

Mustang 05 - Tell him you want a simple H-pipe installed. Its no longer a "true dual" set up. Make sure he knows that you want to keep the cats as well.


Vb101 - The JBAs use a Y-pipe setup. Not true dual, so dont worry about power loss. Im personally VERY anxious to see your gains with the sct/intake/exhaust combination. I think you have a good chance at making some real power here. Let us know how it turns out!