better bang for buck 347 vs. 351w

[p.exeter_bleu]

ok before i was set on going with the stroker, but after doing some research i saw on a webpage that a 351 might cost less to put in my car. what are your opinions on it? what cars can i find a 351w in? also what signs should i look for when picking out a potential candidate to make sure the engine will be worth buying? a stroker kit would require me spending around $1,500.00 or more but the 351 is said to have a stronger block. i need all opinions on what is best. as if mentioned in previous posts im looking to have a N/A beast, that can be my weekend car. what are your suggestions, if you own a stroker tell me what kind of numbers i can expect as far as performance and cost, same for the 351w. also what intake manifolds can work with the 351w? a list of things i would need to get my car ready for the 351w besides the engine would also be very helpful.

thanks and sorry for the long post but i really need to start getting an idea of what i should save and what i can spend on the stang.

 

[matm347]

The actual motor might cost less but you'll need other things like brackets and a distributor, different headers and intake, so the cost is actually more in the end.

You are only loosing 4 cubes which is less than 5 HP.

I would go with the stroker, my next motor will be a 331 sportsman block setup for about 12-15psi. I should make over 500 RWHP.

If you get a stud girdle on the stock 2 bolt it will be reliable up to around 500 HP, just keep the detonation away and you'll be fine.

The 351 blocks are a little stronger, they'll hold about 650 with a girdle.

 

[MeanMussy]

There have been quite a few discussions on this before. Do a search, and you'll learn volumes.

A 351W will cost more. But, in my opinion, it's worth it. It's a stronger block, as mentioned. The stock 5.0 block is capably (usually, cause I know some have pushed more) of holding 500HP. If you think you'll never want more than that, a 302 based stroker is the way to go.

I like the insurance policy of a 351W.

Finding a 351W to just drop in your car is going to be a challenge. They are mostly used in trucks. Great torque, not exacly quick. With this, while you have the motor out, you might as well stroke it out too. Most common are the 393 and the 408.

Additional parts you'll need for a 351W:
(not a complete list, cause I'm sure I'll forget something)
hood (351W has a larger deck height)
motor mounts (probably should replace w/ any motor)
headers (the motors out, might as well go long tubes)
h-pipe (for the long tubes)
fly wheel
balancer
intake (lower is diffent from the 5.0, upper is same)
oil pan

Most of the other parts, you can reuse from a 5.0. Heads, cam (if your block is a roller block or you use linked lifters..)

As far as which one, that's going to take some serious research. There are quite a few variations of the 351W out there.

I've been looking at this for quite a few years now. I was considering a 331 or a 351. Well, for my money, I'm dropping in a 351W.

 

[p.exeter_bleu]

so which would be quicker from the get go? a stroker or a freshly dropped 351w lets say no machine work though. my funds arent exactly the best im a 19yr old student who works at subway. so if id have to further enhance the 351 to get the car as quick as a 347 stroker than ill just go with the stroker. thanks alot guys.

 

[Rootus]

The only downside I would think to a stock displacement 351 would be the extra weight -- isn't it like 100 or 150 lbs heavier than a 302? I would definitely want it stroked to 393+

Dave

 

[matm347]

You are adding more HP with more cubes, the 351 is heavier. So the 347 will make your car faster with the same equipment.

You can stroke the 351 as mentioned above to 392/408...I think the 351 stroker kits cost about the same as a 347 kit, but it's up to you.

Your block will have to be machined to clear the longer stroke of the 347. So it depends on what your future plans for the car entails and, of course, your budget. I suggest the 331/347 in your situation.

 

[92GreenGT]

Correct me if im wrong. BUT I have heard in many many situations that a 347 is NOT the way to go with a daily driver. I dont know if you mentioned that but im sure its your daily drivers since your 19. But I suggest a 331 kit if you want the bigger cubes. Get a nice flowing h/i and a nice cam and you got it.

Dave

 

[p.exeter_bleu]

actually the 5.0 is not my daily driver my 01 v6 is. i got the 5.0 for 1500 and im still paying the v6 every month plus insurance. the 5.0 has no insurance as of now not till i can find a good rate for liability.

 

[hllon4whls]

347 is eaisier. No parts to fight. If it bolts on to a 302, it will bolt on to a 347. You are going to need a better flowing intake, heads, cam and exhaust. But like we said, it should all bolt right up to a 302 based 347.

Power wise they should be about the same. That means if you use the same quality internals, same heads, same cam, same flowing intake, then both should make roughly the same power.

Take some extra shifts at subway. It took me 10 years to get enough cash to buy my first stang (the one I have now). Even though I have wanted one since I was in high school.

 

[p.exeter_bleu]

yep i never complain once im inside either one of my mustangs, i forget all the long lines of angry customers and all the stupid questions we have to ask and all that horrible sandwich shop attitude we get.

 

[MeanMussy]

Correct me if im wrong. BUT I have heard in many many situations that a 347 is NOT the way to go with a daily driver. I dont know if you mentioned that but im sure its your daily drivers since your 19. But I suggest a 331 kit if you want the bigger cubes. Get a nice flowing h/i and a nice cam and you got it.

Dave

Today, the idea that a 347 is a bad daily driver is nothing more than a myth. 10 years ago, true, today, not true. The problems that used to be inhearent in a 347 were the wrist pin intersecting the oil control ring. This caused excesive oil burning, a bad thing for a daily driver. Today's kits (CHP, etc) have engineered this problem out of the pistons, and have made the 347 as reliable of a daily driver as the 331 or 302.
The current draw back of a 347 is contained in long rod theory, if you believe it (which you should). Essentially, the 331 will rev higher than the 347, providing more HP.
If you like TQ, go w/ the 347 over the 331 and the 351 (er.. 393) over the 347.

 

[90mustangGT]

I'm by far not an expert but this is how I look at it.

A 302W stroked to 347cid will save you weight over the 351W, and it will be a kind of "bolt on" thing with alot more bolts to bolt off first. The thing that would concern me is that the 302 is a bored and stroked engine already. It was originally designed as a 260, was beefed up to 289, then again to 302cid. If you've ever seen a 302 short block, its alot smaller than other small blocks. IMO, the 351 is a small block, the 302 is a mini block. Stroking to a 347 is adding 87cid over the original design. Thats about 1/3rd over the orginal design.

If you go 351, you have a stronger block and internals, better rod ratio and the option of going 400cid or larger in the future.

 

[66 Racer]

***Kinda long but i would read it all since im in your same situation, it may be advise you need to hear****

Well, you have to see what your budget is, i have done all my parts on a budget, im 20, dont have a high paying job either but i put together a great budget 302 for my stang that does great. Its quick, from the 1/8th mile numbers i put up (8.66 @83mph with no traction) it should do around 13.20's-13.50's. Some fine tunning may have been able to get it faster, thats with stock gears and all too. it all probaby cost me around $1000 with parts and machine work.

It may be better putting a strong 302 together that will be more reliable than a half @$$ stroker that may not be able to handle the power you want. Build it strong so it will last. Dont build something unless you build it stong is the advise i constantly hear, cause if you have a rod bolt go out on you your motor is gone and all it would have cost you to get good rod bolts were $40, it will now cost you more to get a new engine.

For a while i have been thinking the same as you are right now, but think about it, if your gonna build a 347 you want some power, why stop there, when for a couple hundred more you can build a 393/408/418/427 stroker that all revolve around the 351w. Might as well make your hard earned money count for something that will crank out some serious horsepower. The 393 seems to be the easiest which uses stock 351w rods, 302 pistons and a 3.85 stroke crank (crank stoke is around there 3.8 somthing). Just make sure you give that 347 or 351w some good heads, the more cubes the better the heads need to be.

I think i'll stop here, i could go on and on. By the way, my lil 302 has hung or taken out some nice cars (including 03 cobras) and it cost me next to nothing, i think a t5 and 4.11's in the back would make it a killer, but unfortunatly she is starting to puke a lot of oil out, i may build her up again before the stroker to give me time to make the car ready for the 500+ hp the stroker can make. Yes i ment 03 cobras.

*************A GOOD TIP**********

MAKE FRIENDS WITH THE GUYS AT THE MACHINE SHOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They helped me out A LOT with the funds on my 302, i had it in my car running before it was all payed off, they let me get a lot on credit.

 

[5.0 HOtrain]

MYopinion may not mean much (or could be the 12 pack i've finished). I had a stock bottom ended 302 with h/c/i that ran 108.8 in the 1/4. I wanted more. Looking at all the 302 based strokers that n/a pushed to make 350-400rwhp I opted for a 351 based stroker. I now have (almost done) a 418ci windsor stroker. On pump gas this motor should make 575-600+fwhp. What I did was NOT cheap by any means but should lay down 500-530 rwhp. As mentioned above it is a heavier engine, but more power/torque will KILL the weight difference. At 2500 rpms my motor should make more torque than a n/a 302 stroker will at peak. Most parts you would buy to build a 351 stroker you would buy to do a 302 stroker Maybe just me, but if I were to do a new stroker 302, I would not stick with a 50oz balance wich would entail a new balancer and flywheel anyway PM or email me for any details, but here is my combo (not all of it made it in there, but the majority)
mike.


http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=401072

and some pics
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=401955

[email protected]

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

351s are heavier, but if you have the dough for a tubular K member and some aluminum heads, you'll end up lighter than a 302 w/ stock heads and K member. The stroker would be faster than a stock 351 because it'll make more power, but you'll be at the limit of what you can do with a 347 except for power adders. You can stroke a 4 bolt main and gurdled 351W all the way to a 426, so if you were to do that, plus the K and aluminum heads, you'd be killing people at the track. Then get yourself a nice supercharger or TT setup and next thing you know you're running 8s and changing your undies after every run.

 

[SPEED FREAK]

BAH go big or go home! My recipe for 351W installs is dirt cheap! you'll love it and it's super simple

ideal donor motor - 85 crown victoria 351w

oil pan - stock crown vic

balancer - stock crown vic

timing cover - stock crown vic (blocked off mechanical fuel pump port)

engine mounts - 88 vert mounts (lowers the engine considerably clears stock hood with EFI)

headers - I bit the bullit and bought hooker long tubes but you could get away with stock 302 headers and a custom h - pipe. I've seen it done.

heads - if you dont have e7's the crown vic heads will flow roughly the same (302 heads fit wonderful if you drill the head bolt holes to 1/2") which also makes a good point that 351w's keep head gaskets together better more nitrous is always fun

cam - whatever flat tappet cam you want (they are dirt cheap)

intake - carbed is cheaper but if you want to stay efi get a systemax 351w lower and match it to your stock upper (there may be better alternatives I have an edelbrock 5.8 performer efi) all other stock efi stuff works with minor mods

flywheel - I made one out of a 302 flywheel using a brake lathe and a tire balancer just shaved the weight to make same (sounds ghetto but I got it to balance 100% the same to my 351w flexplate that was balanced to the engine)

Hood - stock mustang hood with center brace cut out

I also got my displacement to about 365 ci (6.0L ironically enough) by having the engine bored .060 over, if your buying new pistons anyway what the hell go for the gold!

Honestly though there is no real reason you couldnt get a 351w in your car for 500 bux or less. With a little ingenuity and a little work it all falls into place all simple like. If you wanna get really freaky I have a recipe for a home brew 427 ci windsor using dodge 360 rods and chev 383 pistons and a 400M crank lol sounds like frankenfun to me

If you want more specific info just ask. Or PM I was never a big 302 based stroker fan myself but ford australia uses 302 based 347 strokers as a factory option in their Falcon. (they get all the cool cars)


Sorry for the long ass post
Kevin

edit* just remembered the a/c p/s bracket you'll need to change but honestly just ditch it, if your going strip anyway you dont need a/c or p/s

 

[66 Racer]

from what i have seen, and this may not too accurate but the 351's weighs only 100-150 lbs more than a 302, which makes a differance but isnt anything to cry over, and the other post was right that the differance in cubes will more than make up for it.

One thing for thought, I wouldnt build any kind of stroker unless you had a good set of heads to run em with. MM&FF tested some heads in their issue this month, the stock ones on a nice street 393 peaked at about 380hp, while all the aluminum ones were over 500, with the afrs and brodix over 555hp

 

[Boss 351]

150lbs? No way... The weight difference is no more than 80 lbs. But if your 5.0 is running, stick with it and save up some cash for the 351W swap and a stroker kit + heads. Or get a stronger bottom end on your 302 and supercharge it.

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

150lbs? No way... The weight difference is no more than 80 lbs. But if your 5.0 is running, stick with it and save up some cash for the 351W swap and a stroker kit + heads. Or get a stronger bottom end on your 302 and supercharge it.

totally agree. I had planned on buying a really strong race prepped 302 or 306, something simple and reliable that i could beat the heck out of, but my engine runs strong now, so i'm just gonna freshen it up a bit, throw in a very mild cam, maybe an air gap intake, and a barry grant speed demon 700 carb. That's not happening though untill i get full lengths, new mid pipe and catback (my current system is totally rigged up) and a new 5 speed, probably a Gforce T5. After the tranny i'm getting a full road/track suspension.

Sure a stock or mostly stock 302 isnt all that powerfull, but right now it'll melt the tires and turn a solid 13.9 on DRs, and that's with what i believe to be original equipment shocks and springs all around the car and a bone stock engine with stock manifolds. I think too much emphasis gets placed on a big bad engine when everything else that gets overlooked can bring the best out of a stock engine.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

The thing that would concern me is that the 302 is a bored and stroked engine already. It was originally designed as a 260, was beefed up to 289, then again to 302cid.

Unless I'm mistaken, the 221 was before even the 260, but this just further illustrates your point.

After building my 302, I'm about certain that I'll get a 351W next time(and a pre-smog car, like a late 60s Mustang or Torino). Just about everything is stronger and you can stroke it bigger. A 408 is big block displacement in a small block package. Once you have a powerful engine, though, you'll have start replacing the other weak links in your driveline(like the trans).