Blew A Darn Head Gasket Already!

[skiwesser11]

But if my info is right, the C&L flows a little over 1100cfm to the pro m's 1550, but the 65mm tb flows way less, so, if the formula on Wallace race calculator is correct: a 306 at 6200 rpm at 90% VE would only pull around 500 cfm.

So I guess I'm asking, is the power increase in the electronics?

 

[f8tlfiveo]

They just have issues with turbulence..depending on your intake setup. Sometimes if you clock the Maf 90degrees it will read differently. Which will throw off your computer. There is a table in the computer called a Maf transfer. The Maf reads in volts0-5, the higher the voltage the more air that is going through the Maf. When you have any turbulence the readings can get skewed. So people will clock the Maf until it reads more correctly.. You shouldn't have to do this.. I have never heard of this happening to any other brands of maf's.. The stock Maf has a screen in it to stop the turbulence.

 

[Mr. Rustypwnz]

Put your stock 19's back in and a 94-95 gt maf, and you wont have anymore problems. C&l meters are garbage. Throw that in the trash! You can barely even feel a 60 shot, put a 150 in it!

 

[Noobz347]

I knew id get hate. The factory meters work good.... C&l utilizes the factory electronics. Do your homework fellas. The factory electronics are far beyond what pro m or why of the other manufacturers use.

Also, most major tuners prefer c&l. Know why that is?

Ummmm... because you live in backwards land?


I've tuned (or attempted) to tune with C&Ls sample tube meters. They are every bit the pile of useless crap that people say they are. They do not stay consistent and many are so out of whack that you can't even ball-park them. This is with back to back runs ON THE SAME DAY. Some of those issues with some C&L meters can be handled by reclocking the meters. The others are so poor that no amount of reclocking or replumbing can help them.

Their newer style meters are a bit different. They've smoothed out the housings, dumped the silly replaceable sample tubes and have spent more time making sure that the housing and sample element housings are a correct match. They don't seem to have all the same problems that the older offerings did and though I haven't played with one yet, I hear good things about their housings that use the new slot style meter elements.

Not sure what you mean about electronics being better OEM vs. Pro-M. Pro-M's electronics are the best in the business. Theirs is specifically designed to offer peak resolution down low and repeatable and consistent results across the entire range. They make them that way intentionally! Any time you take an OEM element and stuff it into a larger housing, you loose metering resolution in the lower CFM ranges. People who buy a Pro-M want it all. They want precise metering down low --AND-- the abilty to meter huge amounts of air with pin-point accuracy and consistent, repeatable results. Their electronics do just that and have as good a quality as anything you'd find mass produced. Something like a Pro-M is the NEXT step... not a step backwards.

 

[2000xp8]

But if my info is right, the C&L flows a little over 1100cfm to the pro m's 1550, but the 65mm tb flows way less, so, if the formula on Wallace race calculator is correct: a 306 at 6200 rpm at 90% VE would only pull around 500 cfm.

So I guess I'm asking, is the power increase in the electronics?

The power is in the size and the proper calibration, pro m and pmas meters are run on a flow bench then the sensor is calibrated for the air flow. If it's still the same as always, when you buy a new one you also get the mass air transfer sheet with each individual meter.

Anything before the TB is a restriction, that's why you want the larger meter, regardless of size.

 

[skiwesser11]

They just have issues with turbulence..depending on your intake setup. Sometimes if you clock the Maf 90degrees it will read differently. Which will throw off your computer. There is a table in the computer called a Maf transfer. The Maf reads in volts0-5, the higher the voltage the more air that is going through the Maf. When you have any turbulence the readings can get skewed. So people will clock the Maf until it reads more correctly.. You shouldn't have to do this.. I have never heard of this happening to any other brands of maf's.. The stock Maf has a screen in it to stop the turbulence.

So if it's running fine, I shouldn't clock it. I'm sure this is a dumb Q, but I've never heard that about C&L, admittedly I've not talked to ppl with experience with them until now. Thanks

[QUOTETheir newer style meters are a bit different. They've smoothed out the housings, dumped the silly replaceable sample tubes and have spent more time making sure that the housing and sample element housings are a correct match. They don't seem to have all the same problems that the older offerings did and though I haven't played with one yet, I hear good things about their housings that use the new slot style meter elements.

Not sure what you mean about electronics being better OEM vs. Pro-M. Pro-M's electronics are the best in the business. Theirs is specifically designed to offer peak resolution down low and repeatable and consistent results across the entire range. They make them that way intentionally! Any time you take an OEM element and stuff it into a larger housing, you loose metering resolution in the lower CFM ranges. People who buy a Pro-M want it all. They want precise metering down low --AND-- the abilty to meter huge amounts of air with pin-point accuracy and consistent, repeatable results. Their electronics do just that and have as good a quality as anything you'd find mass produced. Something like a Pro-M is the NEXT step... not a step backwards.][/QUOTE] (did I quote wrong? told ya I'm new lol)

I'm 99% sure I have the new style, matched to 24's of course.
Again, I didn't realize the air meter could be holding me back as much as you guys are saying.
If I keep the chip in it, will the new meter throw off the tune??
How much power do you guys think it'll get me? in other words, is the $ of the pro m worth the gain?. I don't wanna spend $300 for 4-5 hp ya know?
thanks guys

 

[2000xp8]

I'm 99% sure I have the new style, matched to 24's of course.
Again, I didn't realize the air meter could be holding me back as much as you guys are saying.
If I keep the chip in it, will the new meter throw off the tune??
How much power do you guys think it'll get me? in other words, is the $ of the pro m worth the gain?. I don't wanna spend $300 for 4-5 hp ya know?
thanks guys

Likely you don't have a newer one, the 73 meter is like 15 years old now, i doubt they even make it anymore and i could almost certainly say they didn't take the time to revise it.
You chip is likely tuned to the c&l, but it's like i always say, chips usually make foxes worse not better, hence yours is lean and you blew a head gasket.

A good meter isn't only about power gain, it's about maximizing the engines potential and drivability.
It's the sum of all parts that make great power, right now you have one good part, the heads, 5hp here, 5hp there adds ups, before you know it you have 330rwhp, which is probably what your car lays down now spraying that extra 60 shot.

 

[VibrantRedGT]

Info on MAF's.

5. MAF AIR FLOW DATA (In CFM):

1.Stock 5.0L 58MM (89-93 Mustangs), 606 CFM
2.Stock 5.0L 70MM (94-95 GT/Cobra Mustangs), 815 CFM
3.Pro-M Bullet (75MM), 964 CFM
4.Ford 80MM (Lightnings), 1017 CFM
5.C&L 73MM, 1171 CFM
6.Modified 80MM (Flow Bar Removed), 1368 CFM
7.C&L 80MM, 1415 CFM
8.Pro-M 77MM (Shorty/Supercharged Version), 1543 CFM
9.Pro-M 77MM (Standard Version), 1562 CFM
10.Pro-M 83MM, 1598 CFM
11.Pro-M 80MM, 1612 CFM

ABACO SERIES- Tested 20.4" With 10" Air
12. DBX-85, 1052 CFM
13. DBX-97, 1252 CFM
14. DBX-97b, 1323 CFM​

 

[skiwesser11]

Ok, it sounds like I'm going to pull the chip, tune the motor best I can, 14* @ 49psi FP, to start? It's been a while since I messed with it because of the chip, which like I said before sure made it more driveable. If I have too I'll see about gettin chip reburned , so not as lean! I still don't know why he tuned so lean, but I know he was trying to " tune it tight"

 

[Noobz347]

Likely you don't have a newer one, the 73 meter is like 15 years old now, i doubt they even make it anymore and i could almost certainly say they didn't take the time to revise it.
You chip is likely tuned to the c&l, but it's like i always say, chips usually make foxes worse not better, hence yours is lean and you blew a head gasket.

The portion in red...

Chips done poorly, chips bought off the shelf (one size fits all) are junk. Custom tuned chip by a professional that knows what he's doing, are a different story all together.

 

[f8tlfiveo]

Chips done poorly, chips bought off the shelf (one size fits all) are junk. Custom tuned chip by a professional that knows what he's doing, are a different story all together.

I agree.. Even with a professional it can still be difficult..getting the car to go 12.5 afr at wot is easy... Getting the drivability is where it gets more difficult..

 

[89stang1]

imho i would keep the chip i run a sct 4 bank eliminator chip and love it!!! now i would go with a better cam even the TF #2 i like comp cams, then junk the C&L get a PMAS meter i think they are cheaper than PMS and just as good, then get it tuned again on dyno this time put a switch in it for nos and have a nos tune burnt on the chip. A 255 pump might have been the better choice especially spraying nos, hopefully your using colder plugs for nos i think im running autolite 3924 and gap your plugs for nos, ........then spray a 100 shot or more and go find that honda!

 

[skiwesser11]

Ok, I'm a bigger idiot than I originally thought!!

The bad A/F curve was on the baseline pull, the chip has A/F curve right on 13:1 through the whole rpm range, so it's still tuned pretty tight at 13:1 huh? I'll try to upload my dyno sheet but I'm pretty much computer illerterate as well.

So I guess I'm saving some $ for a pro m 77 and to have chip reburned for motor, and go ahead and put nitrous tune on it too, I'm staying at about 150 though since I've only got the one fogger. I'm not really trying to have a race car. My goal was always a mid 11 sec street car. I've had the car since I was 17, got it new. Now I'm 41 this sat., so needless to say, I LOVE MY CAR!! I had the stock motor with all bolt ons going low 8,s in 1/8th. Again had some grim lens for awhile and haven't been to strip in a while. I want a 7.50