building first engine which one?? 302/306/ or 331

[buff531]

hey guys,
im trying to decide between buying a DSS racing 306 or 331 stroker motor, a FPS racing block (again 306 or 331), or rebuilding my stock block to save some cash...

what do you all think i should do? i would have to take a loan out to build the engine.. but im ok with that.

the DSS blocks for a 306 are $2,000 and for a 331 is $2,500.. DSS states that you only see a 30-40 hp increase between the two. Have you guys heard anything good about DSS??? the two people i know both bought engine from them, each of which were not to happy with the quality, but then they advertise all these cars running 9's with their engines.

i just came across the FPS blocks. they are about they are about $400 to $500 cheaper... never even heard of these guys.. have any of you? heres a link to the website
http://www.f-p-s.com/engines/index.html

or im thinking of just building up my stock motor with a 302 kit and saving the money for heads and cam and just be done with it. ive never rebuilt a engine before so im not to sure which way i want to go and im coming to you guys to help me decide...


are these engine reliable? if so which one would be best for 70%street and 30% track??
is rebuilding a engine fairly simple? would it be as reliable as purchasing a new with with all forged internals?
how much hp would i make with going with a 306 or a 331 instead of the stock 302???
does it handle modifications better?
whats the difference between flat and domed pistons?

i have alot more questions but we will leave it to these for now....

 

[Paul Perreca]

have ur motor machined to 306

 

[Jason 302]

What your want to build is all up to your check book. I personally would never buy a crate engine, rather than build it myself. It's a little cheaper and you have the insurance of knowing that everything is correct, and if it isn't you know whose fault it is.

A 331 is worth the money, but like I said, it's all up to how much you want to spend. A 331 will need better flowing heads, intake, cam than a 302/306. A 331 will also have better low-end torque for your street driving needs, but will pull a likely built 306 going down the track (at least it should anyway). Buy a Haynes manual and also a book called "How to Rebuild a Small Block Ford". It's an old book, but has some good info. You can find it at Jeg's for like $16 or something.

Some people swear by DSS and some people have had lots of trouble with them. I haven't heard much bad about CHP, so if that's the route you want to go just keep doing research and you'll come to a decision.

 

[Paul Perreca]

check out central coast mustangs thats where i'm getting my crate - i dont have the know how or the time to know how you know what i mean- so i buy a crate and have it put in for me - but neway centralcoastmustang.net has a nice set up of engines - ask about them on here, i did n nobody had anything bad to say about them
Paul Perreca

 

[tjm73]

Rebuild with the block you have and spend the extra money you would have used for a new block on good heads.

Don't overbore if you don't need it. It'll save you a little money and you'd still have 327 inches. A Main girdle on a street engine without NOS or boost is a waste IMO. Windage tray is not a waste.

YOu can get pretty good stroker kits just about anywhere for less than $1000 everything but balencing included.

327/331 require NO block clearencing like the 347 does. It's a drop in.

I want a 331 for my 90 GT. Maybe this winter........

 

[buff531]

where do you find kits for under $1,000????

DSS has a 331 stroker kit which includes crank.. for like $939.95 or i can go with the Pro-lite pistons for an extray $140.00. Balancing is $175.00 and to get it machined would be $300-$400.. right there im at roughly $1,414.95...

ive never assembled an engine before... at that FPS website i posted i could get a built motor with all forged internals for like $900 bucks more... but then again.. that could be the cost of my new heads roughly...

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.... what to do what to do what to do...

 

[tjm73]

I know that there are several companies in every issue of MM&FF and 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords lately that advertise them. Can't remember the company names though.

 

[buff531]

hey guys im trying to price out what i would need to complete my engine build so i can have a basic idea of the cost.. i have alot of questions

i think i decided im going to go with a 331 stroker motor from DSS. as i did some research, once you get to the high horsepower applications all the tolerances come into play alot more... me being a beginner engine builder, id ont know if i want to drop 5k+ on an engine and have it break down after a few runs like my stocker did. I plan on using my A-trim on the engine for now until i can save up for an S-Trim.

DSS or FPS 331 stroker motor

Heads = Can i use my stock heads for now to get by? which new heads would you recommend? i was looking at AFR's but which size would i need

Cam - which cam would you recommend?

Oil Pump - Will the stock oil pump be ok or am i going to need a high volume oil pump?

Oil Pan - will the stock 5 qt. be adequate or am i going to need a 7 qt. Whats the benefit of going with a 7 qt.

Windage Tray- is it necessary for a blower application?

Main support girdle - is it necessary for a blower application?

Roller Rockers - will the stock ones work on the new heads? or will i need to purchase new ones? if new ones which would be better? 1.6 or 1.7???

Injectors - what size injectors should i purchase?

Inline Fuel pump - is this going to be needed?

Headers - what size header should i go with 1-3/4" or 1-5/8"??? should i go long tube or equal length? how much of a pain is it to install long tubes?

Push rods - will new push rods be needed since i will have a new cam?

Rollers - will new rollers be needed since i will have a new cam???


will programming be needed on my stock computer for the above application?

and how much HP would you think i would have with a 331 and an A-trim pullied for 8-9 lbs of boost? what do you think it would run in the 1/4 mile????

 

[Jason 302]

Heads- Yea, you can use your stockers until you get some good ones but I personally wouldn't do it. I would just wait until I had the coin to get heads before I put the motor together. I know it's hard to wait, but trust me it's worth it. I've learned to build what you want to begin with, or you'll just end up spending more money. I say AFR 185's or FRPP Z304's.

Cam- Of course, you know everyone will say custom. But off the shelf I would go with something similiar to a TFS #2 or X303 cam.

Oil Pump- I wouldn't use a high volume with a stock pan. And if your blower needs to be feeded oil, I would go with a high volume.

Oil Pan- Yea, I would go with a Canton.

Windage Tray- Not necessary, but worth it.

Main Support Girdle- Wouldn't hurt.

Roller Rockers- No, stock heads are pedestal mount, aftermarket are stud mount. The ratio you choose will depend on the cam.

Injectors- 302/306= 24lbers. 331/347= 30lbers.

Inline Fuel Pump- Not needed. An in tank 255 should be enough.

Headers- I say 1 3/4". I don't know on this one. Go long tube though. Just drop them down in with the motor, they aren't bad.

Pushrods- Best to get a length checker and some check springs. See what your wear pattern will be.

Roller Lifters- Depends on the mileage of your old ones. I'd say if they have more than 50,000 on them, get new.

Chip- You might need one to keep your A/F in check. I'm not good at boost applications.

I would say around 450-500 rwhp and low-mid 11 timeslips. Like I said, I'm not good at boost applications.

 

[buff531]

Hey im starting to do more and more research on the 331 engine... i found many posts with people posting their HP numbers.. i am sad to say that im pretty DISGUSTED with what im seeing..

my lil ol 302 with all stock parts (except blower, TB, and intake) made 305 HP and 351 ft/lbs of tourqe. Please note that this is WITHOUT i repeat WITHOUT a tune.. i could of gotten an additional 10-20 hp from a good tune!!!!

the numbers i have been seeing for a 331 with heads cam intake and what not are around 330-350 hp and 380-425 ft./lbs of tourqe.

with heads on my stock block and a good blower cam i could of hit those numbers easily no problem...

why would i wanna spend all this money (ie $5k plus) on a stroker motor thats only going to give me 30 more hp than stock???

i always thought that with a 331 and a blower i would be at 500 at the rear wheels and running low 11's to like 10.8's... what gives? why all these crappy numbers on the 331's???

this sucks i thought i had my mind made up but now im back to square one!!! lol

 

[Grn92LX]

why all these crappy numbers on the 331's???

Because people use parts for their combo, plain and simple. They have the common misconception stuck in their head that using "big" parts is gonna kill all their low end torque So in essence, they settle for mediocrety and spending all that money to be slow.

To help you in your decision i'm gonna tell you flat out, avoid dss. Talk to N8miller. He just re did his 331 combo with good parts. He used a "huge" victor jr head and a "huge" tfs R manifold. I helped pick the parts His mass air meter is screwed up so he sent it back to be fixed. Once he put it back on, expect his car to be a runner I see it going 122mph once he dials it in.

I'm building a 347 but i'm using a small head, a twisted wedge head. I had it so I used it. But to make 'big' power from that small head I am using a TFS R manifold and a pretty aggressive FTI custom grind camshaft. I'm hoping for over 120mph.

 

[buff531]

122 mph = what in the 1/4??


and why avoid DSS ive heard nothing but good stuff about them..... not to mention they are right down the road from my house... i can pick up the engine to save on freight.

 

[Grn92LX]

122 is around 10.80's.

My friend has a dss 306 and they put the wrong piston in it. So of course a piston hit a valve and the motor had to be sent back to dss to be fixed with the right piston. Ended up costing him quite a few bucks. I don't recommend mass produced engines for that fact.

 

[TheUser]

122 mph = what in the 1/4??


and why avoid DSS ive heard nothing but good stuff about them..... not to mention they are right down the road from my house... i can pick up the engine to save on freight.

do a search on DSS man, there have been a few, although they may have been destroyed in the crash :damnit:

You could maybe check out Rick91GT on here...he builds motors

If your motor is fine right now, I would do what the other guy suggested and just wait and get the heads at the same time. Otherwise you'll have to do the same labor over, or pay someone else to do it.

Don't forget your cooling system...is your cooling system up to snuff enough to cool a big 500hp motor down?

 

[ninjacoupe]

I'm building a 347 but i'm using a small head, a twisted wedge head. I had it so I used it. But to make 'big' power from that small head I am using a TFS R manifold and a pretty aggressive FTI custom grind camshaft. I'm hoping for over 120mph.

You gonna get that running this year? I'll be a happy guini pig When your ready to see how it pulls.

 

[Grn92LX]

You gonna get that running this year? I'll be a happy guini pig When your ready to see how it pulls.

That can be arranged

You never ran yours at LID right? Can you post your graph again?

 

[ninjacoupe]

That can be arranged

You never ran yours at LID right? Can you post your graph again?

Early on about 40 rwhp ago. I hit 114-115 should be around 118ish now. I'll post it late tonight when I get home from work ...1am

 

[runningmole]

331! You'll love the torque it produces. 331, AFR 185s, FTI cam, your fav intake, and your tires up in smoke

 

[Danish88GT]

only one thing to say!
You need to get you a Paxton Novi 2000!
Paxton says it'l push out 400hp on a stock 5.0 so add a little and 450-500 is not far away.
I'm putting one on mine also running an intercooler so air temp stays down. cus i'm planning on running stock motor with a trick flow cam.. I'll post when its done

 

[buff531]

no i dont have the cooling system to cool a 500 hp motor. i want to build this the right way but i cant see buying ALL new components for an extra 40-50 hp.. thats like 7k all said and done for 40-50 hp over stock...


what other good blocks are out there?