C&L MAF Good or Junk?

MysteryMachine · Dec 31, 2004

I wanted to get a Pro-M but with plaining on upgrading I don't wanna have to spend the money on getting it recaled. So beings C&L all you do is change out the tubes I figured it would be worth getting one of ebay with a couple tubes and buying a 19 tube off ebay so I can run it now with the stock injectors then when i upgrade chage to the 24 tube that comes with the one i'm looking at. I did a search and a lot of people say their junk to go with the Pro-M. I was wondering what you guys think of them. You have any problems or anything?

must b a stang · Dec 31, 2004

I have a new C&L MAF sitting on my work bench that is calibratded for 30lb injectors i pulled it out and put the stock one in till my pro-m 80mm comes in. to call C&L crap is an under statement.

final5-0 · Dec 31, 2004

I've seen peeps have more probs with C&L than ProM. Not to say that some don't have any probs with their C&L.

I went with a ProM cause most don't have trouble with them and you can get a transfer curve for them which is important if you self tune.

If you are not gonna self tune I sure can see advantage of the C&L if it is one that will work for you.

Why don't you just get a ProM caled for 24's along with the larger inj's and be done with it?

Later
Grady

Venom351R · Dec 31, 2004

I have a C&L 76 MM that I have had on there before and now that the car has a blower on it. Its done fine N/A and blown, Ive never really had any problems w/ it. Even being happy w/ the way its run I still want to go w/ a Pro-M 80 MM just b/c I think I can get some more power out of the blower w/ the PRO-M VS the C&L

DJHA90 · Dec 31, 2004

I have no problem with my C&L 76mm - but Im only running 19# injectors right now and I have the stock heads and CAM.

tderrick · Dec 31, 2004

How far can you get away from the factory size TB / MA before you have to flash/chip the computer??

What are the factory sizes anyway??
65mm TB and 70mm Mass air??

MysteryMachine · Jan 1, 2005

tderric: its a 60mm tb I think and a 70mm MAF

must b a stang: how much you want for yours maybe it will work for me for now till i'm done what i want to do. LOL if its just sitting there i could just give you my address and you could give it to me. (i think i've had a few to many beers and shots tonight)

Josh94gt · Jan 1, 2005

I have a C&L 76mm. I have had no problems at all with it. I think most people run into problems with the C&L when they have a cold air intake that has a bend in the intake pipe before the MAF.

OrangeMustangGt · Jan 1, 2005

yeah i got a pro-m 73? i believe... i love it. I got it off of ebay, my car runs better with this then the new stock one i had. Also you can change the sample tubes, which i like....but i dont have a bend before it........maby thats why,,,

MysteryMachine · Jan 1, 2005

Humm mine has a bend before the MAF

BlackVert · Jan 1, 2005

i think it has to do with the air not flowing uniformly through the bend, which causes the meter to not be consistant. you can turn the meter so the tube is in different locations (relative to the bend) until you find an orientation that works best for your application. either that or build your own intake track that moves the meter as far away from the bend as possible ...

onebad95 · Jan 1, 2005

The problem with the C & L is that it is very inconsistent. I would go Pro-M and get it recal. when you need to. It is worth the money in my opinion all day long.

final5-0 · Jan 1, 2005

tderrick said:
How far can you get away from the factory size TB / MA before you have to flash/chip the computer??

What are the factory sizes anyway??
65mm TB and 70mm Mass air??

AJ

Your question can't be answered with an exact or general reply. Every combo can be different even though they have the same or very similar parts. Some of the guys on this forum have pretty strong combos and still use the stock pcm with no help from any tuning device. Others with milder combos have had all kinds of trouble and have had to go custom tune.

A close answer to your original question is the stock tb took me to my sig dyno resusts. The stock maf & it's transfer was also in use at that time but due to the increased airflow I was forced to go to the larger inj's.

btw ...... I was within a percent or two of exceeding the max airflow of the stock maf on the sig pull. Thats kind of close to an answer to your Q

Later
Grady

AznStanger3v · Jan 1, 2005

i have a c&l and it works great

Don 95Vert · Jan 1, 2005

You don't need to replace the MAF unless you are pegging it. Pegging is not maximum airflow - it's when the MAF reaches 4.7v on a stock system without a chip. A chip can extend that to 5v however. The MAF tube itself is not a restriction in a system

The BEST MAFs bar none are OEM MAFs, we recommend people keep stock MAFs until they peg them, then upgrage to a 90mm LMAF (Lightning MAF) - good to about 450 RWHP. After that an SCT BA 2400 MAF is good to around 800 RWHP before it pegs.

With LMAFs and SCT MAFs you do need a chip. If you think on a '94 and up you can just get by with slapping on a Pro-M or C & L MAF that has been calibrated to the injector size, you are mistaken - you'll still need a chip. The MAF is used to calculate airflow to the engine and it's also used to establish where load (volumetric efficiency) is. On '94 and up Mustangs, timing is determined by load. Say you get a MAF calibrated for 38# injectors (just a number). When Pro-M 'calibrates' the MAF, they adjust resistors to send less voltage to the EEC. In this example, it's cut in half - which, if it done right is theorectically perfect for adjusting the injector's pulsewidth. The problem is by cutting the voltage in half, the load calcualtion is also cut in half - so instead of the timing (on a T4M0 processor) being 25*, as it is stock, it is 38* at the lower load value. This may or may not be an issue with an NA car - it probably would be - but on a blower car it is VERY BAD. The other thing is the base fuel table is also based on load - and guess what - as load goes down, the fuel curve leans out. So you have more timing and less fuel - a bad combination.

final5-0 · Jan 1, 2005

Don 95Vert said:
You don't need to replace the MAF unless you are pegging it. Pegging is not maximum airflow - it's when the MAF reaches 4.7v on a stock system without a chip. A chip can extend that to 5v however. The MAF tube itself is not a restriction in a system

The BEST MAFs bar none are OEM MAFs, we recommend people keep stock MAFs until they peg them, then upgrage to a 90mm LMAF (Lightning MAF) - good to about 450 RWHP. After that an SCT BA 2400 MAF is good to around 800 RWHP before it pegs.

With LMAFs and SCT MAFs you do need a chip. If you think on a '94 and up you can just get by with slapping on a Pro-M or C & L MAF that has been calibrated to the injector size, you are mistaken - you'll still need a chip. The MAF is used to calculate airflow to the engine and it's also used to establish where load (volumetric efficiency) is. On '94 and up Mustangs, timing is determined by load. Say you get a MAF calibrated for 38# injectors (just a number). When Pro-M 'calibrates' the MAF, they adjust resistors to send less voltage to the EEC. In this example, it's cut in half - which, if it done right is theorectically perfect for adjusting the injector's pulsewidth. The problem is by cutting the voltage in half, the load calcualtion is also cut in half - so instead of the timing (on a T4M0 processor) being 25*, as it is stock, it is 38* at the lower load value. This may or may not be an issue with an NA car - it probably would be - but on a blower car it is VERY BAD. The other thing is the base fuel table is also based on load - and guess what - as load goes down, the fuel curve leans out. So you have more timing and less fuel - a bad combination.

Don

First of all thanks for typing out all that stuff for everybody to see

This is the kind of info that is worth its weight in gold

It is one thing to know that stuff but as for the way you explained it ...... well I would have had to use two or three times as many words and most likely still not have got those points across to be of any help to anyone. Good job with your description of how load is the focus of our pcm's

The info that Don shared with us about how load is critical to our pcm's goes to show why afprs, mafs caled for larger inj's and the like are not as effective as a custom tune for drivability issues and making max power cause the mechanical methods have no way to deal with load.

Later
Grady

MysteryMachine · Jan 2, 2005

so what your saying is you won't lose anything by going to a 75mm tb and sticking with the stock maf? And that we really don't need to change the maf untill we go forced air? Cause other then that is there a way to peg the meter with just bolt ons and h/c/i?

LOL and by the way i'm a redneck and most of that made no sense at all except for the keep your stock one

RIO5.0 · Jan 2, 2005

Don 95Vert/final5-0...Excellant info indeed.....I never really understood any of that til i had a Superchip burned....It was cool watching the airflow stuff going on...I our case we had a blown 302 with all the goodies and it was damn near pegging the MAF at max volts, but you could see it hitting on it so to say......was worth its weigh in gold to see it happen and get a good understanding of it....I believe this car had the Lightning Maf in it....

Same with the Inj pulse stuff....on our motor, you could watch the 36s being maxxed out..and the FMU wreaking havoc trying to keep up...i walked away with and understanding about maxxing out injectors...

final5-0 · Jan 2, 2005

MysteryMachine said:
so what your saying is you won't lose anything by going to a 75mm tb and sticking with the stock maf?

I'm not trying to say that an upgrade to a larger tb & maf won't give you a gain.

Modding for more power is all about increasing the air flow through the motor. More fuel will be needed to go along with the extra air flow as well.

The stock tb & maf will support upgrades like exhaust or an intake or whatever cause air flow has not been increased enough for them to be (the key word here is) EFFECTIVE.

Bottom line is ...... stock or slightly improved air flow will mean tb/maf upgrade will yield small gain. The more air flow the more gain with their upgrade.

And that we really don't need to change the maf untill we go forced air?

IMHO, the maf/tb upgrade is not as good of a gain for the buck spent as other items. For the amount of money spent for a tb/maf I would rather go for a nice intake.

Cause other then that is there a way to peg the meter with just bolt ons and h/c/i?

As Don told us the maf will support more air flow than tbe pcm can handle. The pull you see in my sig had the stock maf reporting 4.9xx volts to the pcm.
Again ...... it is all about air flow. Also note that I was using 30lb inj's for that pull cause you need the fuel to go along with the increased air flow. My Tweecer allowed the larger inj's to be used with the stock maf.

LOL and by the way i'm a redneck and most of that made no sense at all except for the keep your stock one

I understand and don't feel bad about not understanding this kind of stuff as it takes a while to get a grasp of how it all comes together.

HOWEVER

Truth is truth and just cause we don't understand it doesn't really matter.

I keep telling myself that cause there is so much about our hobby that I've yet to learn.

On the internet it can be difficult to know the truth when you see it sometimes. The info Don gave us is right on the mark about the maf.

Later
Grady

MysteryMachine · Jan 2, 2005

well thanks guys. Like it says in my sig i already got the tb it was a Christmas present from a friend so i'm gonna put it on. I'll keep te stock MAF and use the money i have on headers. Now I know you guys will say their not worth it yet on my setup I heard that a lot but its a slight gain in hp and they will make a difference in sound which is kinda why i want them. My car sounds great now with the stock ones i figure headers will make it sound even better

C&L MAF Good or Junk?

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