carb for a 408 stroker

OK Friday my stoker build should be done. It it running probe dished pistons with RPM Air Gap intake, Performer heads, EDL-7182 cam, roller rockers, and a Holley 650 CFM carb. Is that carb going to feed the engine enough? If not what do you recomend?
 
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According to the thread, its a 408.

I think a 750 would be a good carb for your combo. The 650 would be a bottle neck for sure. Depending on the purpose of the car an 850 might be a better choice.
 
You have to take a LOT of things into consideration first.

First off, you have small Performer heads and a small cam (for a 408, those are small). The components you have are designed for low RPM, high torque numbers. That combo with a big carb doesn't mix. Why would you stick a big carb on something that doesn't have the internal components to warrant running a large carb? You don't want to turn it into a complete turd at low RPM's.

I am an Edelbrock fan (and rightfully so), but those are mechanical secondary carbs (technically speaking). You would be MUCH better off with a vacuum secondary carb such as a Holley 0-1850 (600), or maybe even a 0-3310 (750 cfm).

Now, if you really have a 650, it very well could be a mechanical secondary carb. If you have a 4777, that is NOT a good choice for your combo because it will want to bogg off the line when you nail the throttle because all 4 barrels open up. That kills your velocity! The 3310 750 is actually a smaller carb in that when you nail it, only the primaries open (375cfm) until the velocity becomes enough to siphon open the secondaries. That'll only happen when the engine needs it, not when YOU nail it and TELL the engine to take it.

All of the bigger carbs some people have mentioned were designed for more performance or "race" use. Performer heads and a 7182 cam are NOT race or "serious" performance components, so why would you out a serious carb on it?

The 3310 is a fantastic carb that will do all you want, and THEN some, and it won't bog off the line like a double pumper Holley will.


At 100% Volumetric Effeciency (which trust me, your engine won't be running at 100% VE), a 650 cfm carb will support 400 cubic inches up until about 6,000 RPM. Do you think those heads or cam will flow or work at or above 6,000 RPM? The even bigger question is, how often do you honestly think you'll be driving around at 6,000 RPM? Then ask yourself how often you'll be between an idle and say, 4,500 RPM. THAT is how you choose a carb, not by what someone "says" you should run.

That cam and head combo you have WILL peter-out at about 5,400 RPM. In other words, it will "nose over" or peak out at, or slightly before, 5,400 RPM, so why put a carb on it that your engine would need to rev even higher to, to utilize when it will already be PAST its power making RPM? It will rev higher than 5,400 RPM, trust me, but it WILL nose over its power number at aboyut 5,400 RPM.

Trust me, I have dyno'da LOT of small block Fords, and I was even the designer behine Edelbrock's small block Ford "Nitrous / supercharger" Victor series heads. Look in a 2000 - 2002 Edelbrock catalog and you'll see under those heads where it says; "Designed by Bad Ass Racing Engines".

Anyway, the simple fact is, choose a carb that is too big, or that is a double pumper, and you WILL be slower at lower RPMs and geting off the line, where 90% of your driving will be. Choose a smaller carb or one that is a vacuum secondary type and you'll be a tire shredding machine off the line and will have all the top-end power your engine can make.

Just an FYI for the rest of you, a "bigger" carb does NOT mean more fuel. Jet size has to do with fuel delivery. The carb "size' pertains to CFM. Put a 1050 Dominator on your engine and it'll lean out so bad, you won't know why. It'll be lean because when you give it hard throttle, the engine takes a big gulp of air but the velocity isn't enough to pull any fuel through the boosters, so all it got was air, then it lean pops and you wonder why you can't go anywhere or why you are running so lean at low RPM's. This same situation happens down the scale.

Just remember too, a 600 cfm carb (such as a Holley 4776 and a 750 cfm, like a Holley 4779) can (and often do) have the same jet sizes. If the jet sizes are the same, guess which one runs leaner because it flows more air.... yah, the bigger carb. Bigger does NOT mean more fuel.....
 
arron, this is one place i will disagree with you. yes his combo is set up for low and mid range power, and high velocity air intake, and that is where the problem is. if he were not running the stroker i would agree that a 600-750 carb would be the better choice, but in this case the smaller carb will increase mixture velocity even more and that will cause problems of fuel being bounced out of suspension, and creating a rich condition that will be very hard to tune out, and still have a proper fuel curve. the 800 cfm carb i recommended will slow the mixture velocity enough and eliminate the excess mixture velocity, and will still feed the 408 when he turns up the rpms. i think the drivability will be much better with the larger carb in this case.

as for the edelbrock carbs, they are air valve secondaries. yes they throttle plates are mechanically controlled, but they also have a secondary plate that is controlled by air pressure, much like the quadrajet does, and thus the carb acts like a vacuum secondary carb.
 
Trust me, I KNOW Edelbrock carbs VERY well, and they are great carbs for a mild engine like this or any other mild performance engine. I am also VERY farmiliar with the upper throttle plate which is air controlled. It'sa tried and true design that works pretty darn good. I don't dispute that. I just "prefer" a Holley type of vacuum secondary carb on engines like this. Vic Edelbrock himself will tell you that his 600 cfm carb is a great choice for a 454 Chevy or a 390 / 400 / 428 cubic inch Ford for mild use and economy.

It may be a 408 but it ain't going to have THAT much velocity through the carb to bounce or splatter the fuel atomization. I mean, many 351M and 400M engines came with 2 barrels on them. 400 cubic inches flowing through a 2 barrel at WOT is nearly as bad as the fuel issues you mentioned he might have with a 4 barrel at WOT. Yes, some had larger cfm 2 barrels, but even the biggest was only 500 cfm, and those engines didn't have those on them, it was more like 350 cfm.

When you have a 70's F250 Camper Special truck pulling a steep grade in passing gear at WOT and it pulls like a mule, that has merrit, and it would take an EXTREME velocity to do what you said might happen. This also rings true with cars of the 70's gas crunch that still had large engines in them, such as LTD's or T Bird's with 460's and 2 barrel carbs. No problem there either with quite a bit more cubes than 408.

I build a LOT of blower engines (both Roots and centrifugal types) In fact, they are my specialty, and smaller carbs (whether pull through or blow through) work VERY well, and you want to talk about extreme velocities? Two 450 cfm carbs with 3,500 cfm flowing through them is some serious air volume which is traveling at extreme velocities. You ever see the 1,000+ HP BBC Pro Charger has with the 2 little 450's on it? Most blower guys will tell you smaller carbs work better. You won't see more velocity ina carb than a blower motor creates and they don't have fuel splatter problems.

When a carb or an intake manifold is too small, even on extreme race engines, you never really know unless you put a vacuum gauge on the intake manifiold and see if you begin seeing a vacuum signal at WOT. If no vacuum signal is present, then you have no restriction creating a vacuum. Even when they are a little too small, they still usually run right on out to max RPM. This dopesn't even get into what kind of boosters he has. He most likely has straight leg boosters which aren't down in the venturi to get much of a velocity signal like down leg boosters get. Most standard Holley carbs come with straight leg boosters. Only more serious carbs (HP series, etc.) come with down leg types, so I can't see him having that kind of a problem. Annular discharge boosters also have an affect. We use a lot of annular discharge booster carbs on blow through supercharged systems. It's ALL relevant.

What do I use on MY 408's, 427's and so on for street strip use? Usually 750's like Quick Fuel Technology Q750's, but what I build is quite a bit more radical than what he is running and the cars they go in are a bit more "set-up" with higher stall converters, lower rear gears, etc., so they don't have issues or bogging off the line like he would probably have.


I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying I find what you said hard to believe with his mild combo is all :)
 
most of the time i also recommend smaller carbs, ask just about anyone here. in this case though i think the 800 thunder carb might be the best bet, though a 750vs holley isnt a bad choice either. remember even gm put 800cfm carbs on their larger engines, including the 396, granted it was the Qjet with its tiny primaries.
 
Gentlemen.
I really appreciate your help and input on this. I am not able to identify the model of Holley it is. It has P-80 on the drivers side and from my research I believe this to be 3310. Would You both agrre that I should be fine with this carb for some time or when I add a more aggressive cam?
 
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Now, if you really have a 650, it very well could be a mechanical secondary carb. If you have a 4777, that is NOT a good choice for your combo because it will want to bogg off the line when you nail the throttle because all 4 barrels open up. That kills your velocity!

Just an FYI for the rest of you, a "bigger" carb does NOT mean more fuel. Jet size has to do with fuel delivery. The carb "size' pertains to CFM. Put a 1050 Dominator on your engine and it'll lean out so bad, you won't know why.....

650DP Holley will bog off the line on a 408? Umm No:rolleyes:.................... And Getting the results you say with a Dominator will depend on what boosters are installed in the venturis.
 
Answer 1 for gunnerdog; Yes, I would at least give it a try and see how it runs. Don't buy something until you try whwta you have first.

Answer 2 for rbohm; GM also designed the Holley 3310 for the 68 SS 396 Chevelle, a vacuum secondary carb. See any "fast" or "quick" GM cars with Q jets lately? :)

Answer 3 for D. Hearne: Yes, with small heads, a small cam, and even more importantly.... too small of a stall converter and/or rear gears that aren't low enugh, a 650 DP can (and will in most cases), cause even a 408 cubic inch engine to bog off the line.

I ain't gonna argue with you. That's not what I came on here for. I have better things to do than argue. I do this for a living and have a pretty "BAD ASS" reputation to back me up. All I can say or relay is what I know from experience and LOTS of cars and dyno work. I've built hundreds of strokers in my day and have been the first to build several large cubic inch strokers that no one built until I did. The small block Ford 462 cubic incher was one of them. On top of that, I have worked on literally hundreds and hundreds of race cars and probably more than that in street / strip cars. A Holley DP will cause an engine like that to bog off the line, or at lower RPMs, when under high loads at lower engine speeds. This is especially true if the combo of the vehicle isn't set up for it (gearing and stall RPM).

Put a 650 DP on a 400M or a 390 engine with a stock converter and stock rear gears and watch it bog. That's almost 408 cubes. The time slip at the track tells the story. If you ever want to run one, I am sure I can muster something up around here and meet you at Sears Point Raceway for a check :)

4 barrels opening up under too much of a load = loss of velocity. This is why smaller carbs like the old 660 center squirters we used to run back in the 70's and early 80's never worked real well unless you launched off the line at a very high RPM. That was the days before trans brakes and readily available high stall converters. Take that same little 660 and mash the gas off an idle and even a fairly large cubic inch engine will bog if it doesn't have a converter that will flash high enough or gearing to help it move. It ain't always about cubic inches. I don't know gunnerdog's set up other than it's a 408 with quite small heads and cam in it. It'll be great for making big timer low-end torque (which is a good thing) so why kill it with a big carb? It ain;'t like its going to be reving above 6,000 RPM anyway. That set-up will nose over well before the 6,000 RPM mark, which is fine, whi HAVE to rev an engine so high anyway? Want to run agauinst my '02 Duramax? It makes almost 900 Ft Lbs of torque with the mods I've doen to it and has run a 12.98 in the quarter mile. Not lightning fast compared to some vamped-up Diesel's these days, but certainly faster than high reving cars that weigh half as much.

It ain't always about RPM. Little BOSS 302's ran at high RPM's too, and you can bet a well built 408 Windsor will eat it up and spit it out with less RPM pretty much any day of the week, and it's all accounted to torque. His little 408 with that combo is going to make REALLY high torque righ off an idle so why not put a carb on it that "accents" that low end torque instead of trying to kill it? If I am wrong then Holley, Quick Fuel, Vic Edelbrock, Barry Grant carb Solutions Unlimited and pretty much any other carb manufacturer or carb customizing shop is wrong because we all say the same thing. if he had bigger heads, a healthier roller cam, and if I knew he had low gearing and either a manual trans or an automatic with a stall in the 2,800 - 3,000 area, then sure, a larger carb might bea good choice, but not an 800 or anything like that.
 
3500cfm's through a pair of 450's? Isn't that enough air for 2400hp? I can't imagine the pressure it would take to get that much air through 900cfm's of carb with out a crazy pressure drop. 60psi maybe? Either that or my math is way off.

I had no trouble with a 750dp with 40ci less displacement. It would never have worked with a stock converter, but with one that flashed 3200 it did not bog even with a 3.08 gear.
 
I'd try your 650 first, a good carb for that combo would be a speed demon 650-750 annular booster carb both will flow more than your holley and the annular boosters will help low end signal, On my 408, way bigger heads and cust hyd roller I have ran 650 speed demon, prosystems 950hp and now a mighty demon 750 anuular DP and it runs better than it ever did, the 650 speed demon VS ran very good too, both my demons were right out of the box, the prosystems was custom made to my combo (not impressed with it).

The 800 edel will work good too but I have had great luck with demons.
 
I didn't take the time to do the math either. 3,500 cfm was a quick figure of speech. Like saying your bag of groceries weighs a ton after you've carried it for an hour.

My point was, LOTS of cfm is going through small carbs on a seriously blown engine making serious horsepower (20 to 30 psi) and they don't have fuel splatter problems.

Also, your car doesn't bog beacuse you have a decent stall converter in it. Even without the use of gears, (which your car would be MUCH quicker from 0-60 if you had lower gears).

Taller gearing just puts more of a load on the converter and helps it flash higher and faster. Imagine having no gearing. Like a locked up differential. Give it the gas and your convrter has no choice but to go as far as your engine is capable of taking it because the rear-end won't spin.

Stall is not an exact science and there is no such thing as a "3,000 RPM stall". It may make 3,000 RPM with a small block making 300 Ft. Lbs of torque, but put it behind a well built big block making 600 Ft. Lbs and it'll stall much higher than 3,000. On that same note, put that same converter behind a 170 cubic inch six banger and you might not even get 2,000 stall out of it because that little 6 doesn't make enough torque to pull any stall out of it.

Gearing creates or removes load, just like gearing on a 10 speed bike. If you try to take off in 10th gear, you'd have to have legs like Arnold Swarzineger to be able to get up and go, much like a big block can pull hard with taller gears yet a small block (a normal guy's sized legs) won't. The normal guy would need to take off in a lower gear to pull hard of the line to keep up with 'ol Arnie. A cars gearing is no different, so it doesn't surprise me that you say yours with a stall converter doesn't bog. Just know that just because you don't notice any "bogging" doesn't mean your 60 foot acceleration time wouldn't be better with a smaller carb..... test it at the track and see.
 
FWIW

My 410 made the best 'dyno' power with a shop prepped 650 which was a mish mass of 750 and 650 parts melded into an all out drag racing carb.

My 410 made the best usable to me power (since the shop carb wasn't for sale ;) ) with a 750 biggs which was only slightly behind the shop carb.

The 770 avenger sucked.
The 850 holley DP sucked slightly less.
The 950 holley DP sucked slightly more.

And it was all tested up to 7500.
 
That's what most good race shops do, is MAKE a carb that best suits an engine if the engine warrants such work.

99% of the parts on a 650 and 750 are the same. The bowls, metering blocks, squirters, boosters, etc. You may have a 650 main body on there which would account for the way your car launches so well. You found out with your own engine on the dyno, testing it way out to 7,500 RPM, what I have been saying on here since my first post in that bigger does not mean better. Sounds like the shop you went to knows what they are doing :) Even so, it sounds like your 410 is a much healthier engine than the nice, mild little 408 gunnerdog has and if yours maxed out witha 750, what do they think an 800 or bigger will do to his little low-end torque monster?

Thanks for the input. It looks like some people want to hear what they want to hear on here. I just try to tell the facts so other's can avoid problems. They can take it or leave it.. but hey, what do I know? :rlaugh: