collapsed lifter or roller rocker hit rock bottom

vladasap · Nov 26, 2008

well this is sort of a continuation of my previous thread about blow by issues

i ended up cleaning up my plugs but still a misfire...so i figured maybe theres gunk built up in the cyl so i decided to step on it for the first time after the misfire issues started in order to blow the dirt out

to my surprise i hear a loud knocking...right away i pulled over to see where it is from...i used a stethoscope and listen to the valve cover...a knock over cyls 3 & 4 (not sure which one exactly tho)

when i rev it, it sounds just like a motor with no oil - except of course its not as bad or as loud but enough for you to clearly hear it even over the loud exhaust

my thinkin is this is whats causing the misfire
am i wrong?

and now i gotta look into roller rockers (ill replace them as well even if the lifters are the issue)

Now i have two questions
(1) will 1.7 RR's n a TFS stage 1 cause piston to valve issues?
(2) do i need to lift the head out to remove the lifters or can i just use a magnet to lift'em out of the head?

SORRY FOR THE LONG POST !!! (id rather give more info than leave some things out)

THANK YOU & HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE !!!

hollywoodstang · Nov 26, 2008

(1) will 1.7 RR's n a TFS stage 1 cause piston to valve issues? I have heard it will and has if you have stock heads. People have recommend me not to go over 490 lift on stock or gt40 heads.

(2) do i need to lift the head out to remove the lifters or can i just use a magnet to lift'em out of the head? There is a tool AFM made that you don't have to

I like my cam doing the lift not the roller rockers. TFS cam and head package was made to use with 1.6 rockers from what i have read.

Good luck man

revhead347 · Nov 26, 2008

I would invest in 1.6RRs. The 1.7s work good on some of the smaller cams, but all of the larger cams are ground for 1.6 RRs. Something to think about if you ever upgrade your stuff later on. Technically speaking a 1.7 RR is more mechanically efficient, but in all reality that is just engineering theory that really doesn't add up to any power gains.

Kurt

vladasap · Nov 27, 2008

TFS stage 1 is, and i quote, - "Lift w/ 1.6 rocker (intake/exhaust) - .499"/.510"

now with the 1.7's those #'s turn into .530" / .542"

anyone run this setup before?? - id love to see it lopier and more aggressive especially since my valve springs will allow for it

BTW - can i rule out the valve springs and pushrods? (springs are only 6 months old - TFS kit and wouldnt the pushrods have different symptoms or am i wrong?)

but of course if the 1.7s are a deff ill get some light 1.6's

anyone have experience with summit RR's?
the price is right but i dont wanna be putting in "weak/underrated" components

WHERE CAN I GET THE "AFM" TOOL???
i really dont wanna lift the heads up...but if i take the lower mani off wouldnt i be able to replace them with no specific tools-wouldnt they just fall in??

THANKS EVERYONE ALTHO I KNOW I HAVE SOOO MANY Q's (but im just learning as im going along)

hollywoodstang · Nov 27, 2008

"now with the 1.7's those #'s turn into .530" / .542""

are you running these set up with stock gt40 heads? I mean driving/drove around with this set up as we speak. And you have them milled the heads too? did you have to get the piston notched or what?

WOW. I thought it wouldn't work.

"No" man get the tool to do the job right. Good luck man

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/

This a great time saver for changing cams.

This tool goes through the push rod holes and pulls up the tappets with a high powered magnet, so the cam may be removed without taking the intake off. This saves 2.5 to 3 hours.

p/n AF-0601..........$49.95

vladasap · Nov 27, 2008

well ill pull the intake off n then i was planning on just using a magnet to pull the lifters out from the lifter valley (in btwn the head n the lower mani)

n when i have them out i was gonna just drop the new ones in

that wouldnt work?

hollywoodstang · Nov 27, 2008

Okay...NO. What about the spiders that's holding it? LOL How are you going to take the lifters out of that small push rod hole? come on man. That afm tool is just for changing a cam so it will pull the lifter enough so you can yank out the cam. That's why the spinners are there for to let it sit on the push rod hole and hold it in one position. just take the heads out man Good time to inspect the piston and other internal parts too

by the way how much bennett racing stg2 ported/polished edl performer RPM cost you?

Good luck

vladasap · Nov 27, 2008

...i didnt know of the "spiders" holding it

wow that sucks !

well i guess they do have to come out....this is far worse and a far bigger of a job than i expected

....the eddy (ported polished by bennett racing with the receipt cost me $200 - from a family friend)

hollywoodstang · Nov 27, 2008

Are you doing this yourself?

madams74 · Nov 27, 2008

Taking the heads off is a must on a 302. Reminder that you have to get new head gaskets which even the cheapest ones are $20+ each, and that the head bolts are NOT reusable. Felpro bolts are $40+ at local parts store. You pull that lower intake off only, on a 351W and do this job. Well, once you get the lower off and those heads, all you have to do is remove the spider. Spider bolts are torqued at 10 LBS when placing back together and use red loc-tite. I would get some FMS lifters, just over $100

vladasap · Nov 27, 2008

well i havent had a chance to tear into it yet and before i make any conclusions i want to have a few more opinions

heres my issue exactly - the car is misfiring and i get a ticking/knocking noise but ONLY above 2700 rpms

from my understanding a bad lifter would make noise all the time...there would be noise at idle that would progressively get louder and reoccuring faster which is NOT my case

can it be a bad roller rocker? or a bent pushrod?

and yea ill be attempting to do this myself unless the heads have to come off in which case ill debate doing it alone

i have ARP head bolts - are they reusable or no???

can i check the PV clearance without having the head off? (simply bolt up the 1.7s on and turn engine by hand and see if it rotates effortlessly?)

hollywoodstang · Nov 27, 2008

May be your valve is hitting the pistons....I have no idea. I doubt it's lifters, Maybe roller rockers, bent push-rod???

And those ARP head bolts are re-usable.

vladasap · Nov 27, 2008

thats why i thought it wasnt the lifters
anyone have definite answer here concerning the lifters??

im going to take a video tonight and i will have it on youtube so you guys have a better idea of what it is

any ideas on trying the 1.7s n turning it by hand ???

final5-0 · Nov 27, 2008

Sorry to see you got issues

On a bright side

I'd advise you to not worry ... just yet

If I'm following things correctly
You ain't even pulled the vc yet

I bet you got a rocker that came loose

It goes with saying ... I can't be certain

You may not have much of an issue at all

however

I am certain about one thing

Quit listening ... Quit reving it up ... Quit EVERYTHING :Word:

Ticking ... Knocking ... and Banging noises

Ya kinda sorta wanna keep em ... to a minimum

Pull the vc and see what is causin all the racket

Grady

vladasap · Nov 27, 2008

will do !

im not "worrying" just tryin to see if i can rule out some surprises that might be awaitng below that vc - and i sort of want to be ready and get into it rather than opening the vc, seeing a bad rr and than having to wait a week for the new set to come in (especially when this is all happening in my friends parents garage-who are so kind to let me use their garage - its mid 30 deg here in NY so no work on the street is possible)

now are we almost certain that its not a lifter?...thats my main concern - pushrods and rr's ill swap on my own in no time i just really really fear the head install since the last time i did it - it blew the h.gasket a day later which goes to show my "skills and talent"

any suggestions on rr's and pushrods - trying to keep the $ to a minumum but i do want something thats up to the task and is reputable (something like comp cams or crane) basiclly i do want something nice but nothing extreme and the way i am i will always gladly spend the extra few bucks for quality

and what size rr's do u suggest and what length and thickness for the pushrods?

2002BLGT · Nov 27, 2008

TFS stage 1 is, and i quote, - "Lift w/ 1.6 rocker (intake/exhaust) - .499"/.510"

Did you ask anybody about running the 1.7s with that cam ? Because I am sure someone here would have spotted that being a problem had you ask ?

final5-0 · Nov 27, 2008

If it is just a rocker that came loose
and
If the reason it happened was something simple ... like

You overlooked that one when you were tightening all of em

Then ... maybe it won't be bad

A lot of the time when a rocker loosens ... the pr gets bent
so
Check the associated pr

Also ... Be sure to check if the cup part of the rocker where the pr
seats is not all beat up

Have those heads been cut any?

Did you check any of the valve train basics like?
geometry
spring height
spring pressures
and all that kinda stuff

Yes ... One can just ... throw on a set of heads
but
For them to work as they should and yield long service life

Several things need to be checked during the install :Word:

anyway ... hope you find something minor and easy to fix

Grady

vladasap · Nov 28, 2008

as far as the valvetrain everything was A-ok when i had it all out about 6 months ago. Of course i got new valve springs for the cam (tfs kit good to .542" - which is another concern with the 1.7s as the exhaust lift would be .542" which is their max)
other than that lifters and rockers and pr's are stock but they looked ok and it ran great with me driving it hard for the last 6 months

***side note*** it started misfiring and i have large amounts of oil in the intake just a day before the knock developed and i cleaned up the black oily spark plugs but no improvement - the misfire was persistent

im just not understanding why does it only knock in higher rpm and is the misfire related to all this?
what would only get noisy with the higher revs???

vladasap · Nov 28, 2008

:SNSign:

bump

hollywoodstang · Nov 28, 2008

May be your valves are making contact with piston. I wanted to say this Now it's out of my head. 99% of the time i am wrong! Thank you for listening.

collapsed lifter or roller rocker hit rock bottom

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