Control arms on a budget?

SteedaGus · Dec 22, 2011

NikwoaC said:
I can see the point you're trying to make Mike, but I'm going to have to say I disagree. I have Steeda's high end control arms on my STREET car and I love them. It completely transformed the way the car handles over the stock pieces.

And I still have to say that there is no way any of that flimsy junk will ever find its way underneath my car. That picture that Gus posted really hits it home, IMO. This is really why there is no sense in the "but it looks the same on the outside" reasoning. Thinner tube wall thickness, less weld bead, less weld penetration, inferior bushings, and Lord knows they are probably using inferior steel is some of these cheaper knock offs. I'd use stock control arms before I ever ran crap like that.

Gus, are you at liberty to say what brand those control arms are? Maybe you can send it to me in a PM...?

It would be PM if I tell you, I am not going to bash someone like that in public. Not very professional.

SteedaGus · Dec 22, 2011

Your comparison still doesn't justify how an arm of that obvious build quality will benefit the average street car.

Your comparison was equivalent to putting a stock block next to a dart. While obviously way better built and highly durable, there are way more cars out there running the former as opposed to the latter for the very same reasons.

Your example is exactly what makes it relevant instead of making it invalid. When you pay for a Dart block and you get more than what you get for paying for a stock block, that is exactly the point of this comparison. You have just proved my point for me.

Now I understand you are not convinced there is a benefit over that flimsy arm. Thats fine. That like saying someone isnt convinced they need a dart block for a particular power level because they have convinced themselves the stock block will handle it long enough for their purposes, so they tell themselves why spend that money? That's fine.

There are those however that have higher standards and want higher quality parts, and in the case of control arms it is not a huge difference in money to get something better, unlike your engine block comparison which the large difference in cost is why there are more cars running stock blocks vs Darts. There is a huge difference in disposable income there. Not so at this level.

There are those who will spend more to mitigate the risk of doing a job twice, no matter how small that risk might be to them and treat themselves to the part that is of completely obvious higher quality. Those who want no NVH at all (our 3 piece bushings are soft on the outside, with the hard bushing in the center for this purpose, among other things) and much more durable part (ours can take more abuse before you get it to fail).

You are not one of those people and will argue against any point I make because that is what you believe in. That's fine, but I know there will also be plenty of people reading what I say and nodding their heads in agreement, because they know the difference, and judging by the incredible growth my company has seen in the past decade there are plenty of people who appreciate that difference, and for that I am grateful.

SteedaGus · Dec 22, 2011

srtthis said:
FWIW my UPRs make no noise other then transfering road noise. but im also running 1 solid bushing and 3 hiem joints so my rear moves pretty freely

Road noise is NVH, but, the bushing package is the cause of that, not some flaw in the design the arm. You have less isolation when one of the bushings is solid.

NIKwoaC · Dec 22, 2011

madmike1157 said:
My final point and then I'll get off my soap box.

I'm not saying that Steeda ( or any other premium brand) arms are not great stuff.

I'm simply saying that for street use, until somebody shows me a valid comparison of low end VS high end justifying the reason for the investment, I question why spend that much money so I can zip through some stretch of twisty road.

It wasn't too terribly long ago that I remember seeing a thread where a guy had cracked an off-brand LCA in a street car, on the street, running street tires.

NIKwoaC · Dec 23, 2011

FWIW:

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...ose-summit-control-arms-were-so-cheap.812566/

Oh, and here is a post from another board showing some low-end control arm carnage. Again, take it FWIW. The guy claims it is all GMS stuff, but that is debatable, really.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/10766894-post77.html

CarMichael Angelo · Dec 23, 2011

NikwoaC said:
FWIW:

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...ose-summit-control-arms-were-so-cheap.812566/

Oh, and here is a post from another board showing some low-end control arm carnage. Again, take it FWIW. The guy claims it is all GMS stuff, but that is debatable, really.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/10766894-post77.html

OK, I get it. There are those that have had bad experiences from using a cheap arm.

And Gus, I am not the guy that will stand in the face of a proven fact, and continue to ignore the obvious. Call me stubborn, or just plain dense, but there is probably NOTHING flimsier than the arms Ford put on these cars from the factory. I know I dont have to tell you. but under scrutiny, the bushing shells are paper thin. and are pressed in. (forget inadequate weld penetration) as for the strength of the stock arm it doesn't take much to actually compress or twist the beam, since it's only a stamped channel. ( probably engineered a little "forgiving" to actually help absorb some of the ride harshness) I mean, I don't think there is another product out there that is obviously so visually inadequate. Yet, Those skinny assed arms manage to last so long, (w/o catastophoic failure ) that they are still in place 150,000 miles later when dude calls your company looking to upgrade.

Upon calling your company, the very first option one has when upgrading is to replace the bushing in the old, stock arms w/ new ones your company sells.designed to go in the old bushing shell freshly relieved of the old hagged out rubber unit by either drilling or burning it out.
I bought a set from Steeda.
So here's my stats and my question(s):
If I have a 300 rwhp street car, w/ street tires. I do not intend to race it in any venue, but I might take it to a drag strip once or twice. AND I intend to box those arms w/ 1/8" plate, just to beef them up. My objective is to freshen up the rear suspension, and garner a performance improvement as opposed to replacing the bushings w/ stock rubber pieces.

Did I waste my money ?
Am I putting myself " At risk" using such a weak arm?
Will I notice a performance difference compared to rubber bushings?

Or, given my intended usage, should I have spent another 250.00 (over the bushing price) and upgraded?

7-UP BILL · Dec 23, 2011

I have a pair of "police" spec uppers that are boxed. Looking for $60 if interested.

aar0s · Dec 23, 2011

Im lost Mike, how are you getting $250 over the price of their $70 bushing kits when their top of the line aluminum LCA is 300 and regular ones are 209?

CarMichael Angelo · Dec 23, 2011

aar0s said:
Im lost Mike, how are you getting $250 over the price of their $70 bushing kits when their top of the line aluminum LCA is 300 and regular ones are 209?

I was talking about both uppers and lowers, I mean after all, the bushings are for both.

Sharad · Dec 26, 2011

Everything is relative...

I typically prefer to run spherical bearings all the way around because I love the crispness and I don't mind the NVH. Meanwhile, I ran Steeda poly LCAs on my '06 GT at Sebring and they were outstanding. Also, at UPR our 2010 GT just ran a 9.90 @ 133 on our STREET (poly) LCAs, so I'll agree that the high-end race stuff isn't absolutely necessary for mere mortals. (keyboard heroes must run full race equipment everywhere possible ) But you know, I have a friend up north that has a 2000 V6 Mustang with a 351/nitrous swap that still rides on stock V6 suspension (with an 8.8 of course) and the thing runs 10s on stock V6 suspension!

I can't ever justify running the stock stuff, and most people will not tolerate the NVH that comes along with race style arms. I guess what I'm saying here is that in my opinion, a good quality aftermarket control arm with polyurethane bushings will meet most people's needs.

Noobz347 · Feb 14, 2012

madmike1157 said:
Gus

Gus, I can appreciate the build quality of your arms, and for Danny drag race, and Rodney road course they more than make sense. Your comparison still doesn't justify how an arm of that obvious build quality will benefit the average street car.

Your comparison was equivalent to putting a stock block next to a dart. While obviously way better built and highly durable, there are way more cars out there running the former as opposed to the latter for the very same reasons.

I can justify it. I drive a street car. I RARELY get to the track. Hell... the Mustang usually only comes out on Fridays when it's nice or the weekend under similar weather conditions.

My justification? I have two... I don't want to want to have to wonder if the drive train is going to come apart when I mash on the gas. I don't want to be that guy that creates a carnage thread to describe after the fact, how pissed I am at X manufacturer because I was too cheap to do it right the first time. I have no desire to be the example in these kinds of discussions and post until I'm blue in the face about the inferior product that I purchased in order to be arm-chair-quarter-backed by a pile of theoretical, 'what ifs'.

The second reason? I only like to buy things once. Even if it's not a catastrophic failure, I don't want to have to purchase two of everything in order to keep the thing on the road. If that's what I wanted, I'd have skipped the Mustang and bought a damned Kia ( or maybe a 95 SHO ).

These kinds of threads aside, there is more than enough pics on the internet showing various knock-off product failures. Welds sheering off, torque tube bends and breaks, and even bushings chewing themselves out of their mounts.

So when I'm reaching for parts, do I reach for the one that 'might' handle the abuse or do I reach for one that WILL? Personally, I'm a fan of fire and forget. When I'm generating 500+ ft/lbs of torque, I'm not thinking about the money I saved purchasing a thin wall chinese knock-off as I laugh all the way to the bank.

...but that's just me.

N8Dogg98 · Feb 14, 2012

+1 Noobz. I don't always have the luxury of spending money on myself by buying a new car part, but when I do I like to buy the good stuff that will last me a lifetime. My long term goal is to have the T/A, PHB, coil overs, k-member, etc... from MM. I'm slowly acquiring these parts because ultimately I want a car that can handle well and this is the most complete package offered by a suspension company... I mean there's Griggs but that stuff is REALLY expensive. I could buy UPR LCA's and a UPR k-member for much less money, but its not what I want long term, so it would be a waste to buy it now.

CarMichael Angelo · Feb 14, 2012

Damn it!!!! Noobz347. This fire went out the day after Christmas,...and you had to go and blow on it. Just so you could go .

My point was aimed more towards the average car, w/ average power (i.e.......like mine) whether or not high end C/A's were overkill. You cited an example of 500whp, definitely NOT average whp.

When I first started huffing and puffing on this thread, I was using stock,boxed C/A's w/ new bushings ( like the Steedas I used) as an alternative example to spending 300.00 for a complete set of good arms.

Dig around for me please, and find a thread where somebody w/ 300 WHP posted a disaster thread using a stock arm w/ new bushings. The stock arms even w/o the benefit of reinforcement, manage to last soo long the original rubber ROTS out. I was only endorsing the stock arm as a cheap alternative when properly prepped, and properly matched for it's intended usage.

Now for someone who's gonna tear up some Xcross, Drag strip, or Race course, I say yeah get into your pocket and protect your total investment.
But for Mikey 2valve, who kneels beside his bed and prays to God each night that someday he can take his car to Dyno Day, and be rewarded w/ a 300 WHP data sheet,....
My stock, boxed arms w/ my $120.00 set of Steeda bushings will do just fine.

P.S. I'm already on record saying that the amount of work that went into getting the arms prepped for reinforcement and the new bushings was more trouble than what it was worth, but the fact remains,....it still was 120.00 and DIY labor V/S 299.00 for a set of "site member endorsed" Steeda arms.

N8Dogg98 · Feb 14, 2012

madmike1157 said:
Damn it!!!! Noobz347. This fire went out the day after Christmas,...and you had to go and blow on it. Just so you could go .

My point was aimed more towards the average car, w/ average power (i.e.......like mine) whether or not high end C/A's were overkill. You cited an example of 500whp, definitely NOT average whp.

When I first started huffing and puffing on this thread, I was using stock,boxed C/A's w/ new bushings ( like the Steedas I used) as an alternative example to spending 300.00 for a complete set of good arms.

Dig around for me please, and find a thread where somebody w/ 300 WHP posted a disaster thread using a stock arm w/ new bushings. The stock arms even w/o the benefit of reinforcement, manage to last soo long the original rubber ROTS out. I was only endorsing the stock arm as a cheap alternative when properly prepped, and properly matched for it's intended usage.

Now for someone who's gonna tear up some Xcross, Drag strip, or Race course, I say yeah get into your pocket and protect your total investment.
But for Mikey 2valve, who kneels beside his bed and prays to God each night that someday he can take his car to Dyno Day, and be rewarded w/ a 300 WHP data sheet,....
My stock, boxed arms w/ my $120.00 set of Steeda bushings will do just fine.

P.S. I'm already on record saying that the amount of work that went into getting the arms prepped for reinforcement and the new bushings was more trouble than what it was worth, but the fact remains,....it still was 120.00 and DIY labor V/S 299.00 for a set of "site member endorsed" Steeda arms.

*sigh* I agree with everything you've said. That still doesn't change the fact that if I have plans in my head to one day have 500 RWHP, it is nice to not have to worry about changing out suspension pieces because I went big in the first place.

CarMichael Angelo · Feb 14, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:
*sigh* I agree with everything you've said. That still doesn't change the fact that if I have plans in my head to one day have 500 RWHP, it is nice to not have to worry about changing out suspension pieces because I went big in the first place.

You know what Nate, I agree right back w/ you. (You'll never get hurt by taking the high road) But the thread title was......."Control arms on a budget". If the OP is like me, and knows where his intended usage and total power will end up, (on the street, going to the local cruise-ins) then that is one thing. If on the other hand the car has some future big power plan up ahead, I would've been right there w/ you and Noobz.

Noobz347 · Feb 14, 2012

Hell... I'd take even a stock arm over a brand X arm (actually I did... I run OEM uppers). At least in THAT scenario, the arm has had sufficient R&D to handle 150% (give or take) of the OEM power on virtually ALL types of road conditions. I've no issues with stock stuff.

The parts I have a problem with are the ones that are designed to LOOK like it's reputable cousin but made of thinwall tube stock and has NOT had the R&D to determine it's suitability in either application or quality. Set em up side by side and they only LOOK like the same part. You get what you pay for.

...and as a footnote about beefing up an OEM piece:

At least you know what you're getting. Show me a knock-off company where you can say the same? It's hit or miss. Maybe you're the guy who get's that item out of the box that's good to go! Trouble is... until you break it, how do you know? Maybe the company you bought it from will replace it for free and even cover shipping. I doubt they're going to pony up for all the other damage that caused as a result. I wouldn't put that crap on even a stocker. If it's defective, then it could just as easily break at 190 HP whilst driving to church on Sunday through a school zone past the police station. Do you really want to trust all your work and money to a shirtless malaysian 12 year old who's been at it for 14 hours and collecting 50 cents a day? Roll the dice.

I don't usually participate in these kinds of threads but to all the interwebz guys who have posted their horror stories:

Dude... How many failure threads does it take before you say, "pass" and spend a little more money on something that doesn't have questionable reliability? Hmmmm... Perhaps YOUR horror story will convince the next guy when the one written before yours didn't convince you.

...and yes. I think all these companies should provide a cut-away of their suspension parts. That way, I can at least have a visual of their materials against a product who's name I trust. Why don't they? Because they make clones that are designed to generate cash flow. They're playing the numbers. It's got nothing to do with your safety or satisfaction in those cases.

CarMichael Angelo · Feb 14, 2012

Noobz347 said:
Hell... I'd take even a stock arm over a brand X arm (actually I did... I run OEM uppers). At least in THAT scenario, the arm has had sufficient R&D to handle 150% (give or take) of the OEM power on virtually ALL types of road conditions. I've no issues with stock stuff.

The parts I have a problem with are the ones that are designed to LOOK like it's reputable cousin but made of thinwall tube stock and has NOT had the R&D to determine it's suitability in either application or quality. Set em up side by side and they only LOOK like the same part. You get what you pay for.

...and as a footnote about beefing up an OEM piece:

At least you know what you're getting. Show me a knock-off company where you can say the same? It's hit or miss. Maybe you're the guy who get's that item out of the box that's good to go! Trouble is... until you break it, how do you know? Maybe the company you bought it from will replace it for free and even cover shipping. I doubt they're going to pony up for all the other damage that caused as a result. I wouldn't put that crap on even a stocker. If it's defective, then it could just as easily break at 190 HP whilst driving to church on Sunday through a school zone past the police station. Do you really want to trust all your work and money to a shirtless malaysian 12 year old who's been at it for 14 hours and collecting 50 cents a day? Roll the dice.

I don't usually participate in these kinds of threads but to all the interwebz guys who have posted their horror stories:

Dude... How many failure threads does it take before you say, "pass" and spend a little more money on something that doesn't have questionable reliability? Hmmmm... Perhaps YOUR horror story will convince the next guy when the one written before yours didn't convince you.

...and yes. I think all these companies should provide a cut-away of their suspension parts. That way, I can at least have a visual of their materials against a product who's name I trust. Why don't they? Because they make clones that are designed to generate cash flow. They're playing the numbers. It's got nothing to do with your safety or satisfaction in those cases.

I give.

Noobz347 · Feb 14, 2012

madmike1157 said:
I give.

Say Uncle!

N8Dogg98 · Feb 14, 2012

madmike1157 said:
I give.

CarMichael Angelo · Feb 14, 2012

N8Dogg98 said:

Control arms on a budget?

SteedaGus

SteedaGus

SteedaGus

NIKwoaC

中國製造

NIKwoaC

中國製造

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

7-UP BILL

aar0s

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Sharad

ALWAYS choose the V over the P!!! Wait... what?

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

N8Dogg98

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

N8Dogg98

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

N8Dogg98

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

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