Couple ? about TWEECER

5.0DuDe said:

Okay i caved i have decided to get a tweecer and i have decided its going to be a base

I know i know a tweecer RT is better

but i figure they make the base for a reason and i think i am a prime example

i dont plan on doing anymore mods to my car (other then suspension and gears)but i do plan on keeping the car for another 1 1/2 years so i think going with the base is a good idea not to mention im on a very short budget

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OK ... Sit back and chill ... This is gonna be a bit long ... but seems I've seen a lot of the same lately so ... Maybe this can help our group

So many peeps have helped me in the past
I am always glad to give back to the community
Its the right thing to do and kind of a payback thing I believe

I've learned to listen to those who have done it cause they've got the fruit of sucess

I've played around with the Tweecer a bit but more importantly
I've worked with quite a few successful Tweecer self tuners and I also have their findings to draw from

Having said that ... Allow me to try and help you by saying this

I know I know ...... what you DON'T know is ........

how MUCH better the RT is compared to the base unit.

Sometimes with things ... you just don't wanna compromise

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE TIMES!

You really don't wanna cheap out in this area

now my questions are :

does the tweecer base have the ablility to save tunes for example

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Yes

would i be able to go a dyno tune the car on the dyno save the tune go to the track and dial in the car on that tune

and then have another tune for daily driving

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Yes ... you could do that ... however

If you can datalog ... you can do most of the tuning on the street and that method is much cheaper than paying for hourly dyno time.

As for the track thing ... to know whats REALLY going on with evaluation of test runs ... you are gonna have to look at the plugs OR easier still ... have a wb AND the way to see the bigger pic or complete scope of things would be ... have a wb & datalogging capability.

and be able to switch beween them whenever i want

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Yes

i also plan on getting two brand new o2 sensors mine seem to be very old and dont work

Does anyone recommend any that would work with a 94 gt with no cats
(meaning im looking for some that would be able to let the pcm know that going on with the oxygen down there)

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It they are pretty old, they may very well be getting tired. Do a search on this forum and look for the place that sells them online. That place has them at a great price.

Once more ... Datalogging would allow you to see how active your current O2's are during all different Closed Loop driving conditons.

is it worth getting a wideband and would it work tweecer or pcm and/or together

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Not quite sure about the Q but here is info centered around the keywords

It seems that datalogging has been deemed as unimportant
yet
wb capabilities are a consideration

If this is so ... this would be one of those classic cases of .........
Putting the Cart before the Horse

When it comes to Tweecer Tuning ...............
Datalogging is the foundation you build the tune upon

Please stick with me as I really am trying to help you here
Let me use your last quote to help you see a bigger picture about Tweecer self tuning.

You ask about a wb.

It is necessary if you wanna have a complete, stand alone self tuning package. Without one, you are dependent upon a dyno and their equipment.

however

To get started ... a wb is not necessary

You got two basic parts to a tune
1 Closed Loop - cruise around town & drivability
2 Open Loop - WOT max power conditions

#1 is way more involved ... OR ... the area you will spend most of your time ... especially if you got mods that have thrown your tune outta whack. A wb is NOT needed for this area as you can use datastreams from the pcm called KAMRF & Lambse
but
without datalogging ..... you can't see that stuff

You got no data to evaluate what is going on in this critical part of your tune if you go with the basic unit.

Even all the more frustrating thing would be this

Even if you did make some tweecs for drivability issues by using the basic unit.....

You would have no other way of verifying tuning changes .......
other than your seat of the pants to know if your tweecs are going in the correct direction.

You could very well end up tuning all around the correct value
but
not get close enough to make any significant improvement

When dealing with drivability issues ...........
the most subtle change can make all the difference ...........

Datalogging gives you HARD DATA that is invaluable

Drivability issues ...... in most cases ........can be ........

100% Completely Eradicated

Datalogging is the tool you use to make that happen!

#2 is where a wb really comes into play and is an ABSOLUTE MUST when you want to dial in your WOT af ratio.

Drawing to a close and summing up here .................

The Tweecer's most valuable asset (datalogging) allows you to do 99% of the tuning on the street.

You only go to the Dyno to fine tune

You then get the hp/tq results .... come on this site ...
and tell us all about the Tuning Guru you have become

As for a wb and using it with the Tweecer ........

Even all the more reason you want datalogging .......

You can output the wb to the Tweecer
thus
allowing you to choose a basic wb (less expensive)
because
you can use the Tweecer datalogging ability to display AND sync the wb's datastream along side 15 other outputs of data you have chosen in your datalogging payload.

One last thought or consideration and I'm done.

Can you tune without datalogging to a laptop ... Absolutely
PMS peeps do it all the time
however
ask them if they ever look at their hand held display for verification

Heck ... when you do a dyno pull ... do you look at a screen???
Does the guy give you any ....... hard data???

Call it what you will .............

You gotta have data ... the more ... the better!

Now with using the Tweecer self tuning method ............
you basically teach yourself
You want ... you need ... that data to make the experience easier.

A great tool to help you use the Tweecer is EEC Analyzer
Go to their site and poke around a bit

You'll quickly see that they:

1 instruct you to submitt data from datalogging as a baseline
2 make tuning change recommendations based upon baseline data
3 make 2nd, 3rd, & 4th recommendations based upon ... data

We are just regular old guys who try and tune our Stangs the best we can.

Make it easy on yourself ... Save up for the RT!

A guy like Don 95Vert could tune our car without datalogging ......
then again
He has done tons of em
and
Peeps pay him to do it ... That kinda makes him a Pro

As promised ... I'm done now ... hope this helps somehow

Good Luck! ... which ever way you decide go

Grady

Since your getting the R/T, picking a W/B got alittle cheaper-ish. I plan on getting a Innovate brand LC-1 model that sells for 125-150$ without o2 sensor and 175-200$ with sensor. Its a preatty bare bones wideband but since you have the tweecer thats really all you need.

The next choice for me was the Innovate brand LM-1 model that IIRC sells for about 400-450$-ish. The diff. from the LC-1 and LM-1 is that the LM-1 has a handheld readout that will display A/F, log the A/F, playback? and I think something else. To me if I just spend 550$ or so for a tuner that gave me logging ability, display, and playback why spend 2x's the money on a W/B that does that???

There are a few other brands that are very close in price/some higher and features to the LM-1. PLX brand, AEM, wideband commander, and FJO or something like that. are the biggies.

The way they hook up to the tweecer is also mostly done in 2 diff. ways.

1. People wire it up threw the EGR plug ins, (Searching this topic will far better explain it than I can) and logging the W/B as EGR in the tweecer so all the info is wham...bam...done and in sync. with the other info.

2. Others use a DataQ box (around 25$), (Again searching this will get much more detailed info) you run the W/B to the box and hook the box up to the laptop. When you log it recods to the laptop so you can get the info without not running something on the engine (you have to undo the EGR with the other method to get the W/B hooked up)

The places to search for the most info as well as any other info about the tweecer (cept. here) are

http://www.eec-tuning.org/forums/

and

http://eectuning.org/forums/

If you're into self tuning, get the R/T (and a wideband O2 w/ your forced induction) and be prepared to do a *lot* of research.

Another option for you (since you don't plan on changing your combo much) is to get a chip from a reputable tuner that has multiple positions for multiple tunes (SCT etc). This chip + tunes will cost about the same as a twEECer + wideband. BUT...

You'll end up saving hours of time learning how the twEECer works and experimenting. You'll have a safe, professional tune for your car.

Having said that, if you want to know how things work and don't mind throwing tons of hours at it and have the patience to tune it slowly and safely so as not to blow stuff up, go for the twEECer + LC-1 combo. That's the route I took and I'm happy I did.

W/B does not replace the stock o2's. Think of it as two sep. systems. One for the PCM and one for logging and seeing the actuall A/F ratio.

5.0DuDe said:

okay so would i be able to get rid of my stock o2 sensors all together or would i still need them there for the pcm

im specking in terms of getting a wideband O2

does it take the place of the old ones in the pcm or is it just for the use of the tweecer

i really need to know because i was planning on buying some for the car

but i will wait if the wideband does take the place of them

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unless you are going to force open loop all the time (which can affect part throttle driveability), you need to keep the stock o2's. all the wideband is used for is to measure the air/fuel ratio. your stock oxygen sensors perform the same task just not in increments that are usable for precise tuning. consider the wideband as being exact and the regular o2's using lambse and kamrf as being more of a ballpark figure. grady summed it up very well and the tweecer r/t is definitely worth the extra cash. as was already stated though, the learning curve is steep but it is definitely worth the time and patience in the long run. however, you do now how a great advantage the i didnt have when i bought mine. there are now several sources to obtain very well documented info on the functions of the tweecer that will make things a ton easier. in fact the tutorial here is by far the best i have seen. when i got into mine, all that was available was darren woodall's site, the tweecer forums, and the yahoo group in which the info was there just not compiled in a way that made it convenient for the newbie to use. good luck with it.

5.0DuDe said:

damn dude i guess u made me realize it is worth getting the RT

now the question is what is the best wide band to use with the Rt

and how does that wideband work is it connected in the harness of the vehicle like normal or is directly connected Via a connector the tweecer brings


just trying to get this right this is a big investment and i just want to get eveything right

thanks for the help dude i really appreciate it

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I'm glad to have helped you not make a big mistake

Hey ... I just wanted to give some basic info ... nothing that many 94-95 forum Tweecer users have not said numerous times.

Next time someone asks the same Q ... and they will ......
We'll be able to point them here

Like Roger, I been in the Tweecer thing for a while now

Just like he said, it has not been all that long ago the info needed to learn this stuff was very hard to find

Then you start to talk about our 94-95 cars .............

Back then, fox and sn peeps didn't know the differences
a lot of the time ... we used info to try and tune that was not even applicable to our 94-95 pcm

I could not agree with Roger more
These days, learning how to self tune a 94-95 Stang ..........
Tweecer style ... is a Piece O Cake

You'll have to become close friends with the search button

I know thats not popular ... but ... thats how it is

Heck ... there is more 94-95 VALID/TRUSTWORTHY info on our site than could be found everywhere not all that long ago.

Good Luck!

Grady