Coyote Engine/kenne Bell Supercharger Question

JDubb23 · Jul 10, 2014

I am seriously considering a 2012 Stang (GT Cali Edition) which has the following. Quote from the ad "Over 600 HP, more HP than the Shelby GT500! Kenne Bell 2.9 LC Supercharger Engine with Granetelli Coil Pack ($13,200). Tokico Struts and Shocks with front control arms, rear upper and lower control arms, panhand bar and 3" lowering springs ($3,000). Brembo front brakes, 4 piston ($1,200). MagnaFlow 3" Competition Exhaust, Kooks long tube headers ($1,800). Rims and Michelin Tires ($2,500). Steeda Short Throw Shifter ($500) and the list goes on!!!"

So as a Fox Body 351W swap owner who has been involved in drag racing since a kid I'm wondering if the stock coyote bottom end can handle this type pf power. I am trying to get info as to whether or not there was work done to the bottom end (forged internals, girdle, etc)

Also, will the transmission be able to handle this power? It's a 6 speed manual.

84Ttop · Jul 10, 2014

The stock 5.0 coyote engines will certainly take quite a bit of abuse and with the modifications that you described are more than capable of laying down 600hp. They are built well from the factory and in that 600hp range you shouldn't have much to worry about. Guys like @Sharad are making that kind of power, turning 10 second times at the track and driving them hours and hours each way to get there. As far as the transmissions they have seemed to hold up well too. These cars are leaps and bounds from what anyone could have imagined back in the fox body days.

By the way... Welcome to Stangnet!

JDubb23 · Jul 10, 2014

Thanks a lot. I've been out of the Mustang scene for far too long. I'm amazed at the amount of technology in the new Stangs and the affordability it hard to match. I am a little concerned about the mileage on this particular Stang I mentioned above(38K - that's a lot of driving for a 2012), but from what I'm told the mods have all been done within the last two years and it's only had two passes at the strip before the owner traded it in for a truck.

Noobz347 · Jul 10, 2014

Kenne Bell Coyote...

85rkyboby · Jul 10, 2014

I wish I could afford Kooks headers, none the less a Kenne Bell Yote.

JDubb23 · Jul 10, 2014

Is there an issue with the Kenne Bell coyote combo that I should be aware of, or are you guys just stating an opinion?

Bullitt347 · Jul 10, 2014

It is not the supercharger that causes issues, it is the tune.If it has a proper tune, then you have nothing to worry about. Period.

85rkyboby · Jul 10, 2014

JDubb23 said:
Is there an issue with the Kenne Bell coyote combo that I should be aware of, or are you guys just stating an opinion?

Myself and @Noobz347 were just drooling over that setup.

flubyu · Jul 10, 2014

Drooling...I would find out what tune the vehicle has. I have done the research on superchargers and, from what I have read, the KB tunes run a lot of timing compared to most other tunes out there. Just a caution is all

Noobz347 · Jul 10, 2014

flubyu said:
Drooling...I would find out what tune the vehicle has. I have done the research on superchargers and, from what I have read, the KB tunes run a lot of timing compared to most other tunes out there. Just a caution is all

Not picking on you in any way, shape, or form but I would like to repeat for all of the people in the back row who have not heard me on this particular soap box....

DO NOT under any circumstances, run an of-the-shelf tune for a blower modification any further or harder than what is necessary to get the car to the tuner for a custom tune.

The WORST case scenario by following this advise will result in between $50 and $100 spent in verifying that the of-the-shelf tune is PERFECT for your car. Then you can come back and tell everyone what an ass Noobz was for telling you to spend your money needlessly (bonus!).

The NORMAL case scenario is that you'll spend as much as $500 to have the combo re-tuned.

The WORST case scenario for NOT heeding this advice is:

Thank You for your attention.

JDubb23 · Jul 10, 2014

Ok so the questions I have for the dealer

1) what info do you have on the custom tune? What shop did the work? I've been told that the wife of the former owner works at the dealership so she should have info and paperwork
2) why is there no boost gauge in the cockpit - I can't see any boost gauge in any pics.

madspeed · Jul 10, 2014

pics? how about the ad copy?

JDubb23 · Jul 11, 2014

[/ATTACH]

flubyu · Jul 11, 2014

Noobz347 said:
Not picking on you in any way, shape, or form but I would like to repeat for all of the people in the back row who have not heard me on this particular soap box....

DO NOT under any circumstances, run an of-the-shelf tune for a blower modification any further or harder than what is necessary to get the car to the tuner for a custom tune.

The WORST case scenario by following this advise will result in between $50 and $100 spent in verifying that the of-the-shelf tune is PERFECT for your car. Then you can come back and tell everyone what an ass Noobz was for telling you to spend your money needlessly (bonus!).

The NORMAL case scenario is that you'll spend as much as $500 to have the combo re-tuned.

The WORST case scenario for NOT heeding this advice is:

Thank You for your attention.

No problem at all. I apologize if I am rehashing any prior posts of yours (you seem to be quite adamant about your position on custom blower tunes) but what is your experience with canned tunes? I would think something like a tune from Ford or Roush would be better than say KB, but I have also read otherwise. Other than plain power and throttle response, what are the other benefits to custom tuning for supercharged applications?

JDubb23 said:
[/ATTACH]

Continuing to drool...looks like the 12 GT I had on steroids

Noobz347 · Jul 11, 2014

flubyu said:
No problem at all. I apologize if I am rehashing any prior posts of yours (you seem to be quite adamant about your position on custom blower tunes) but what is your experience with canned tunes? I would think something like a tune from Ford or Roush would be better than say KB, but I have also read otherwise. Other than plain power and throttle response, what are the other benefits to custom tuning for supercharged applications?

Continuing to drool...looks like the 12 GT I had on steroids

Canned tunes are always an approximation (best guess). There are variations between two motors just like there are variations between identical twins. Of course, this doesn't mean that the differences are going to be significant enough to cause problems. If I'm installing a $7k+ blower on my $50k+ Mustang then it's in my best interest to KNOW that the tune is correct. It's definitely worth another $100 to have it verified. The alternative would be to have my own AFR meter and the capability to data-log so that I can confirm it myself. Either way, it's cheap insurance to know that I've installed the blower correctly and that the tune is in the safe zone before I go pulling 100 mph burnouts through the local school zone. Hell, there are even differences in the fuel that you get in one place vs. the fuel you get from the same vendor just a couple of hundred miles away.

What doctor do you trust to tell you that your appendix needs to come out? The one that you went to see and could look at and verify all of the symptoms or one that you talked to over the phone that says he's done this a thousand times?

As far as my experience with canned tunes? Let's see... I installed my first blower some 20 years ago. Since then, I cannot say exactly how many others there have been or even what specific huffers they were. Like everyone else, I read the instructions carefully, research the things that I don't understand or are incomplete, and ask questions of people who have installed this unit to find out if there are any pit-falls.

Benefits of a custom tune come down to how good of a match the canned tune is for my combo. How close is the AFR to stoich at idle? Is tip-in adequate when I decide to mash the gas? How close is AFR across the entire rpm range at WOT? How close is it during moderate acceleration? How about cruise? Is initial and total timing correct for every load? If AFR is NOT correct, what adjustment needs to be made? Is it timing or fuel? All of things can be approximated given the same blower kit on two cars of the same make and model but how do you know?

If you do a search within this very forum, you will see some horror stories about folks trying to get motors replaced under warranty from Ford.

"SCT tune?", says Ford. Not a manufacturers defect and Not our problem.

"Sorry about your luck.", says SCT.

"Wish I'd verified the damned tune.", says car owner with blown motor.

These were just tunes. Not even a blower involved. The tune has be even closer than it does with an N/A setup. There's less margin for error when you start talking about forcing mass quantities of air and fuel into a motor.

I would hazard to guess that probably 8 out of 10 combos work very well with the canned tune. You don't hear as much feedback from them as you do from the other two. They're too busy making burnout videos for youtube, doing 100 mph through the local school zone.

It's not that the tunes are bad. The trouble is that since they are one-size-fits all, that they cannot reasonably accommodate the differences of each engine combo as hard as they try. Additionally, those tunes tend to be on the conservative side because the makers of these tunes understand that there are variations. They try and leave a certain amount of "slop" in the tune in an effort to prevent lean detonation. This alone, can cause some aggravation in relation to drivablity. It may not be engine threatening aggravation, but it sure is nice when the motor responds well to whatever condition it's being driven in.

There's a damned good chance that the tune received from Kenne Bell or SCT or (enter company here) is spot on. What it worth to you to ensure that? Can you predict detonation within the confines of your cylinders before it's too late?

Just because it's Smuckers, doesn't mean that it HAS to be good.

flubyu · Jul 11, 2014

Noobz347 said:
Canned tunes are always an approximation (best guess). There are variations between two motors just like there are variations between identical twins. Of course, this doesn't mean that the differences are going to be significant enough to cause problems. If I'm installing a $7k+ blower on my $50k+ Mustang then it's in my best interest to KNOW that the tune is correct. It's definitely worth another $100 to have it verified. The alternative would be to have my own AFR meter and the capability to data-log so that I can confirm it myself. Either way, it's cheap insurance to know that I've installed the blower correctly and that the tune is in the safe zone before I go pulling 100 mph burnouts through the local school zone. Hell, there are even differences in the fuel that you get in one place vs. the fuel you get from the same vendor just a couple of hundred miles away.

What doctor do you trust to tell you that your appendix needs to come out? The one that you went to see and could look at and verify all of the symptoms or one that you talked to over the phone that says he's done this a thousand times?

As far as my experience with canned tunes? Let's see... I installed my first blower some 20 years ago. Since then, I cannot say exactly how many others there have been or even what specific huffers they were. Like everyone else, I read the instructions carefully, research the things that I don't understand or are incomplete, and ask questions of people who have installed this unit to find out if there are any pit-falls.

Benefits of a custom tune come down to how good of a match the canned tune is for my combo. How close is the AFR to stoich at idle? Is tip-in adequate when I decide to mash the gas? How close is AFR across the entire rpm range at WOT? How close is it during moderate acceleration? How about cruise? Is initial and total timing correct for every load? If AFR is NOT correct, what adjustment needs to be made? Is it timing or fuel? All of things can be approximated given the same blower kit on two cars of the same make and model but how do you know?

If you do a search within this very forum, you will see some horror stories about folks trying to get motors replaced under warranty from Ford.

"SCT tune?", says Ford. Not a manufacturers defect and Not our problem.

"Sorry about your luck.", says SCT.

"Wish I'd verified the damned tune.", says car owner with blown motor.

These were just tunes. Not even a blower involved. The tune has be even closer than it does with an N/A setup. There's less margin for error when you start talking about forcing mass quantities of air and fuel into a motor.

I would hazard to guess that probably 8 out of 10 combos work very well with the canned tune. You don't hear as much feedback from them as you do from the other two. They're too busy making burnout videos for youtube, doing 100 mph through the local school zone.

It's not that the tunes are bad. The trouble is that since they are one-size-fits all, that they cannot reasonably accommodate the differences of each engine combo as hard as they try. Additionally, those tunes tend to be on the conservative side because the makers of these tunes understand that there are variations. They try and leave a certain amount of "slop" in the tune in an effort to prevent lean detonation. This alone, can cause some aggravation in relation to drivablity. It may not be engine threatening aggravation, but it sure is nice when the motor responds well to whatever condition it's being driven in.

There's a damned good chance that the tune received from Kenne Bell or SCT or (enter company here) is spot on. What it worth to you to ensure that? Can you predict detonation within the confines of your cylinders before it's too late?

Just because it's Smuckers, doesn't mean that it HAS to be good.

Appreciate the knowledge sharing. Makes all good sense to me

JDubb23 · Jul 16, 2014

Thanks for all the knowledge. After a horrible experience at the dealer with the blown GT I've decided to set my targets on a 2013 Shelby. Keeping fingers crossed

flubyu · Jul 17, 2014

Sorry to hear that, but thanks for the update. Personally, I think you would be better off with the Shelby. Now all that supercharged power is warrantied! Best of luck in your search

Coyote Engine/kenne Bell Supercharger Question

JDubb23

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84Ttop

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

JDubb23

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Noobz347

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85rkyboby

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I have been doing it wrong this whole time

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