Coyote Engine Scored Cylinder Wall

tell us more...like why was warranty voided

madspeed1 said:

tell us more...like why was warranty voided

Click to expand...

I don't need to hear from the OP to know why the warranty was voided on his engine (they are welcome to comment though).

Everyone on this forum that owns, knows someone who owns, or is thinking of buying a 2011 or newer 5.0 equipped Mustang should be fully versed on a technical bulletin from Ford on the 5.0 if you aren't AND care about not voiding the warranty on the engine. Read the bulletin here (be patient, slow download): http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/6/474864/tsb11-07-07.pdf

I would have thought that by now everyone here is aware of that TSB. I guess to play it safe 5.0 owners should stick with the Ford Racing tune. They only claim 16hp increase but at least if you have the dealer install it you are protected against a situation like this.
To the OP did you try to fight them on this? I know what the TSB says but Ford can print whatever they want they are still require by law to conform to the Magnuson -Moss Warranty Act. I'm pretty sure that under that Act they have to prove that the specific failure to your engine was caused by your mods in order to void your warranty. You will probably get no where but why not try.

it's just sad ford has to resort to this in building a POS...thank god i still have my fox body cars and thinking about letting the 2011 go

these engines are dropping the number 8 cyl on stock tunes due to a design flaw in the head for lack of cooling on the number 7-8 holes

Svtpilot said:

I would have thought that by now everyone here is aware of that TSB. I guess to play it safe 5.0 owners should stick with the Ford Racing tune. They only claim 16hp increase but at least if you have the dealer install it you are protected against a situation like this.
To the OP did you try to fight them on this? I know what the TSB says but Ford can print whatever they want they are still require by law to conform to the Magnuson -Moss Warranty Act. I'm pretty sure that under that Act they have to prove that the specific failure to your engine was caused by your mods in order to void your warranty. You will probably get no where but why not try.

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According to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act a warrantor is allowed to stipulate terms or conditions that may void said warranty as long as these conditions are clearly stated. In the warranty manual that comes with every new Ford, just such a statement is in there. It states that Ford won't warranty any thing that fails due to abuse, lack of maintenance, or modification.

Here's the exact statement word for word from a 2011 Mustang warranty booklet:

Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification
The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:
• alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis,
or components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor
Company
• tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or
with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not
limited to exhaust and intake systems)
• the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than
a certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed
for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of
Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part
to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized
tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting
systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or
software and performance ‘‘chips’’

People can try to hide behind the claim that "the burden of proof is on Ford" all they want. The fact of the matter is that properly maintained 2011 5.0 Mustang's that are not abused, raced, or modified do not just blow their engines up,or develop engine missfires due to low compression on one or more cylinders while just driving normally down the road. Any one who suggests otherwise is full of it.

I am well aware of the wording of Ford's warranty since from 1990 to 2001 I was a employed as Ford and Lincoln Merc service adviser . As Ford's warranty is worded any aftermarket component whatsoever voids the warranty, so technically the hundreds of aftermarket remote start systems that Ford dealerships install on new cars everyday voids the warranty. In practice it never happens.

What you said Magnuson-Act is correct but it is incomplete. Paragraph C sec 2304 states :
(c) Waiver of standards
The performance of the duties under subsection (a) of this
section shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that
the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer
product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage
(not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession
of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide
reasonable and necessary maintenance).

So as I said Ford has to prove that his mods caused his failure. Forget all that for a minute. There is no way a CAI and a tune if done correctly should cause a failure of this type.
And if it could why is the damage always limited to the the #8cyl ? If it was a bad tune, say for example it caused a lean condition shouldn't there be damage to the other pistons ? Could there be an inherent weakness in the engine? The 5.0 should be a more robust engine then the 4.6 yet there are thousands of 05-10 4.6s running around more heavily modded the the OPs car without issues.
Regardless the guy is screwed so why not push for some type of assistance from Ford? He has nothing to lose.

there is a big weakness in these engines and it's the size of the coolant passage between 6-8 cyl. just like the 4.6 trucks that blew head gaskets and cracked head due to design flaw and why the 4.6 has stopped production due to on coming law suits...i have a f150 with a 4.6 with this problem with 107k on the clock.. MMR luckily has a fix for the coolant issue of the 5.0 but i'm sure as hell ford would void any warrantty if you used it.

Svtpilot said:

I am well aware of the wording of Ford's warranty since from 1990 to 2001 I was a employed as Ford and Lincoln Merc service adviser . As Ford's warranty is worded any aftermarket component whatsoever voids the warranty, so technically the hundreds of aftermarket remote start systems that Ford dealerships install on new cars everyday voids the warranty.

....... why is the damage always limited to the the #8cyl ? If it was a bad tune, say for example it caused a lean condition shouldn't there be damage to the other pistons ? Could there be an inherent weakness in the engine? The 5.0 should be a more robust engine then the 4.6 yet there are thousands of 05-10 4.6s running around more heavily modded the the OPs car without issues.

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What a coincidence, I started working for Ford in 1990 also. The big difference is that I still work for them (dealer, not FoMoCo). Ford's basic warranty policy of only covering manufacturing defects has not changed since 1990, is much older than that, and will always be the same. However since you have stopped working for them, there have been a ton of of changes to the details that go beyond that of the basic policy.

When someone modifies their vehicle, which could be by installing a supercharger for example, the warranty is not automatically voided as you have implied. If this supercharged vehicle goes to a dealership with some form of powertrain related failure or other concern which could be considered unusual and directly attributed to abuse and/or the modifications present as determined by the dealership service personnel and/or Ford factory representatives in some cases, then, and only then will voiding the powertrain warranty be considered. Even if this does occur, the remaining components on the vehicle are still covered under the same terms as they always were for whatever time or mileage that remains. The mere act of bringing a modified vehicle into a dealership service department is not going to end with someone having their warranty voided.

As for dealerships selling vehicles in which the modifications are performed by the dealerships themselves, if the component installed was made by Ford and/or sold by Ford then Ford will warranty the part from defects related to manufacturing, not installation, and they don't warranty the installation alone in any circumstance. It is up to the dealership themselves to warranty the actual installation. If a dealership has installed a part that was not sold by Ford, then Ford won't warranty that part (this should be obvious). If something fails on a car in which the failure can be directly attributed to modifications that were performed by the dealership, then the dealership is responsible for repairing this failure at no cost to the customer. Any dealer that attempts to submit a warranty claim such as this last example to Ford and cover up the fact that the failure was a result of modifications done by that dealership, would be committing warranty fraud is and subject to very serious consequences.

Seeing as how you worked for Ford over a decade, you should already be aware of everything I have stated and none of it should come as a big surprise.

On your question in regards to the #8 failures on 5.0's, I will explain:

From their inception with very, very few exceptions, Ford does not now, nor have they ever designed vehicles with any consideration of any kind as to whether consumers wish to modify their vehicles after purchase or race them in any way. The very few exceptions to this rule, did not carry any warranty at all, or had a very limited warranty.

With that said, no engine ever made is perfect. That needs to be stated again - no engine ever made is perfect. Every engine ever made has minute differences from cylinder to cylinder as far as compression, air-fuel ratio, combustion temperature, and differences in structural integrity in the block & cylinder heads all on even the best engine designs ever conceived. This is a fact. The 5.0 as sold by Ford in stock form is a damn good engine, and being it was derived from the 4.6 (which was one of Ford's most reliable engines), it will also stand the test of time. The 4.6 3-valve engine had 9.8:1 compression. The 5.0 coyote has 11.0:1 compression. This increase in compression combined with the addition of TiVCT (twin independent variable camshaft timing) on the new 5.0 has resulted in an engine which is closer to running on the ragged edge then the 4.6 ever was. This is evident because the 5.0 in naturally aspirated form does not pick up much horsepower when modified in comparison to older Ford engines that pick up pretty good HP gains while still remaining naturally aspirated. Taking all this into consideration, there is very little margin for error when modifying the 5.0 in comparison to to previous engines. #8 cylinder on the 5.0 runs slightly hotter than the other cylinders which is a completely normal variance (as I explained earlier), and is of absolute no concern on any completely stock engine. Taking this normal characteristic of the 5.0 in combination with people trying to get much higher horsepower output into consideration, and an all new design valvetrain that is exponentially more complex, quite a bit higher compression, and you have a recipe for disaster when dealing with less knowledgeable / less experienced tuners, aftermarket suppliers, engine builders, and so on. Detonation is the specific problem, #8 cylinder being the most susceptible due to the reasons I posted. In some instances, other cylinders do in fact show damage, not just #8 cylinder. The FRPP tune for 2011 & newer Mustang Gt's only gives you about a 16HP gain because that is all the FRPP engineers are comfortable in giving you. Whereas a lot of companies in the past got by with moderate success on other Ford engines such as the 4.6, this isn't the case with the 5.0. You really have to know your stuff when modifying these engines. It's as simple as that.

I am not Mr. goody two shoes over here and telling people not to mod. their cars. My only intention is to let them know the truth, and to let them know it's not a good idea to modify your car if you really care about your warranty.

Just because a company sells a tune, sells a part, and makes all kinds of claims about how great they are through big impressive advertisements or has thousands of posts on some online forum, and what huge horsepower gains you will get on your 5.0 if you spend your money with them does not make them an expert, or qualified to do so in any such manner. Anyone can make such a claim, and any past success and/or reputation they might have with other engines is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to the 5.0. If it were me and I didn't care about my warranty, I would stick with FRPP, Shelby, Saleen, Steeda, Roush, and as I have come to learn, MMR really knows their stuff on these engines also. MMR in fact, as has been stated, does have a kit to modify the 5.0 cooling system so that the #8 cylinder detonation concern doesn't reveal it's ugly head on all your 1000HP+ quarter mile killer monsters out there.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Extremely detailed. Have you seen this type of failure in unmodified 5.0s as vfast suggested or only on modded cars?

It happens in unmodded cars as well just like I said earlier ford has a cooling flaw in the heads and they could fix it for a few hundred bucks but they will never admit it. First they would look bad on another engineering screw up and most important the bottom line which would be 10's of millions of dollars. Me I will never ever buy another car/truck with a mod engine.

Doesn't it seem odd ford doesn't offer a 100k warranty. At least our dealerships In town here doesn't on mustangs

Svtpilot said:

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Extremely detailed. Have you seen this type of failure in unmodified 5.0s as vfast suggested or only on modded cars?

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The dealership I work at has the highest volume in the Phoenix region. To date we have had exactly one Mustang in with the #8 issue. This car had a supercharger and tune on it. It's also worth mentioning we sell more Mustangs than any other dealer in the city. The one Mustang we had with this issue had less than 10K miles on it. A Ford rep. inspected the engine in person and made the decision to void the powertrain warranty themselves.

The only concern we have seen on the 5.0 is on some early one's some people have noise concerns. About half of those cars were people that read the technical service bulletin online pertaining to engine noise and wanted the TSB performed even though nothing was wrong (all Mustangs).

I know people at over a half dozen different dealerships scattered all over the country. Not one has told me of any other expirience with the 5.0 that is any different that what I have seen where I'm at.

I spoke to an engineer asking them why this concern seemed to effect only #8 cylinder in much the same disbelief that you expressed. He told me everything I posted, but also that this problem really isn't substantially more likely to occur on a vehicle that's supercharged or turbocharged than not. The common factor that was the most likely thing to cause a problem was in fact the tune itself! Take that for what it's worth. He said a supercharger installed on a car with a stock tune is more likely to be trouble free than a car that only has had a tune done on it! It all goes back to what I posted about there being less margin for error on these engines, and people really need to know WTF they are doing. The Ford engineer also told me that most of the problem is that people rely on things that they learned on older engines like the 4.6 to base their tunes off the 5.0 on. That pretty much flat out does not work on these engine and so you have the situation that we have.

i'm curious to know if anyone here has seen the heads water passage? i have and if i could post a pic I would show it...no one @ Ford is going to admit a flaw as it would be very costly like i said above. the stock tune isn't going to affect one cyl even with the wide band on it..unless it has a temp sensor in every cyl. what they should have done is used a forged pistons from the get-go. and better cooling the head. What happened in the first tunes from people is they deleted the knock sensor in their tunes. you can go to 5 mustang forums and see several stock cars losing number 8 and quite a few modded one's.. if it has a tune only issue other cyl would be failing like #7...until we see substantially more failures ford will do nothing.. i'm really disappointed in ford on this one...if it was a tunes ford could send out a mailer to bring it in and fix it. looking at about 1 hour shop time vs 6k plus on each engine...

Pictures of the 5.0 from every imaginable angle, including clear pictures of water passages in the block and cylinder head for all to see: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/te...ord_mustang_gt_50_coyote_engine/photo_12.html

Vfast, you are obviously a bitter and disgruntled Mustang owner. Sell your car to someone who can appreciate it, buy a FWD import, sue the living daylight's out of Ford, and report back to us when you have won your lawsuit. Until, then- chill out, because you're gonna have a pretty long wait for that mailer to arrive in your mailbox giving you a free repair for something you modified having full knowledge of the consequences in regards to your warranty.

I can't help but think that there is a deficiency if the 5.0 can't stand up to basic mods, especially mods that the 4.6 seem to handle with no problem. This especially a problem for the Mustang community since modding is a very big part of the Mustang ownership experience for most of us. Based on whats available through Ford Racing it seems that some one at Ford understands this but apparently some others don't . I'm not saying that Ford should still warranty modified cars, but In my opinion the engines should be able to stand up to them. The way you explained it the #8cyl failure makes sense to a point, but I still say that a bad tune should cause more widespread damage and a properly done tune should not cause any .So you are saying that if I trade my car in for a '13 and bring to a well known competent Mustang Tuner like say Evolution Performance a get a 30hp tune and CAI I run a greater risk then if I buy the Ford Racing 624HP supercharger kit? That's hard to swallow.
Vfasat are you saying that Ford no longer offers the 100K ESP on Mustangs? I hadn't heard that.

If the 4.6 had all of the same specs and features as the 5.0 does, except for displacement, then the 4.6 would have the exact same problem. A properly done tune in fact will not cause a problem. That is the problem - not very many people out there are doing them properly. I am not an expert in that respect, so I would stick with the companies I mentioned previously (not sure if they all offer 5.0 tunes?).

All light duty certified Ford vehicles have the same powertrain warranty, and have the same ESP extended warranties available for purchase.

If it were my personal car, I would stick with the FRPP catalog myself.