degreeing cams?

[steveb24]

im just gonna throw this out there...

From what i understand by reading this thread, degreeing a set of cams in short is "lining them up properly with the crankshaft", by using the cam gears. The goal is to get them lined up as they were when stock, to have the proper balance throughout the engines components, which would be damn hard to do if you pulled and dissconnected everything. When people like Hotmustang and I install cams by pulling the covers, we NEVER removed the timing chanin, so the cam gears themselves never moved. How than would anything be different from stock when you place the new cams in? I understand what you guys are saying, and the only answer i can think of is.. The new cams produce new tolerances that need to be changed, but is that even true? If so, i understand completely, but if not, especially with a small stg 1 cam like ours, theres no point in all at "lining" anything up, if nothing ever changed.

 

[LaserRed01GT]

Nah! It's because they sound cool.

That's just a fringe benefit.

 

[LaserRed01GT]

im just gonna throw this out there...

From what i understand by reading this thread, degreeing a set of cams in short is "lining them up properly with the crankshaft", by using the cam gears. The goal is to get them lined up as they were when stock, to have the proper balance throughout the engines components, which would be damn hard to do if you pulled and dissconnected everything. When people like Hotmustang and I install cams by pulling the covers, we NEVER removed the timing chanin, so the cam gears themselves never moved. How than would anything be different from stock when you place the new cams in? I understand what you guys are saying, and the only answer i can think of is.. The new cams produce new tolerances that need to be changed, but is that even true? If so, i understand completely, but if not, especially with a small stg 1 cam like ours, theres no point in all at "lining" anything up, if nothing ever changed.

The only point that some of us were trying to make when we suggested that you should always get the degree wheel out, was that normally the entire reason people spend their hard earned money on new camshafts is that they want more performance. With a very small cam like a Stage 1, of course you can just install them without verifying everything, but why? If you were to take the time to verify all the specific VE events, measure the gross duration at .050", measure gross lift, and verify the actual ICL's and LSA you would then be able to get out the degree wheel and properly degree the camshafts so that you could get the most out those camshafts and tune that you spent your hard earned money on. That's all.

 

[SaleenGT2001]

Those two posts are quite possibly the rudest, most immature and disrepectful comments I have read on this entire board so far. I don't see where Fast Eddie personally attacked anyone in here, he was just stating his opinion, but he sure did get attacked.

What started this was when hotmustang331 jumped in here and started popping off his mouth that "you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs". This guy doesn't even know me and he starts spouting off facts about what I do and don't know. I've busted my ass going to technical schooling, running my own businesses, spending time at various tracks all over the nation on several different racing teams, and studying cars and motors on my own just to get where I am. That kind of disrepsect has no place here on this board and really pisses me off.

good, now we are getting somewhere. i AM being rude and disrespectful to you! you are acting like idiots going back and forth about this ****! just drop it already. if you have some useful info please feel free to post it. just leave names out of it. i'm glad you went to tech school. i'm proud of you. just get on with the tech info and off with the damn he doesnt know what he is talking about BS!


i'm done here. this is my last post in here, so have fun guys

 

[hotmustang331]

Those two posts are quite possibly the rudest, most immature and disrepectful comments I have read on this entire board so far. I don't see where Fast Eddie personally attacked anyone in here, he was just stating his opinion, but he sure did get attacked.

What started this was when hotmustang331 jumped in here and started popping off his mouth that "you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs". This guy doesn't even know me and he starts spouting off facts about what I do and don't know. I've busted my ass going to technical schooling, running my own businesses, spending time at various tracks all over the nation on several different racing teams, and studying cars and motors on my own just to get where I am. That kind of disrepsect has no place here on this board and really pisses me off.

Hmm really? As I recall this thread started out like this between us. You said this...

Don't even think about not degreeing your camshafts upon installation. It is a critical step. Doesn't matter if it's a Stage 1 or Stage 999 camshaft, they must be degreed.

At minimum, you will need a dial indicator, piston stop (spark plug hole), degree wheel, cam checking fixture, valve check springs.

For beginners attempting to degree a cam for the first time, Comp Cams makes a pretty good beginner kit. It is part # Comp Cams 4796.

EDIT: One more thing. I would also suggest gettting a set of adjustable cam gears. Without them it is nearly impossible to "dial in" teh camshafts correctly. Fidanza and Comp make some good ones.

Then I said

Yikes!!!!!!!!

Although I have to SLIGHTLY dissagree with laserred in the area of "you must degree any stage cams". Stg 1 cams will NOT have PTV contact....there has been one case with those cams, and the guy accedentally advanced the cams 1 tooth (around 17*s) .
Even Scott @ VTengine will tell you that there has not been one single case of PTV contact when those cams are installed @ 0*s (straight up).
Although I do highly recommend it for the sake of increased performance, its not required.....however all other cams should be mandatory, as they ALL have greater actual valve overlap and the same or more lift as the VT stg 1 cams and there are a few cases of PTV contact with msot of them (262s being the exception on PTV I believe...but not 100% sure).

BTW we didnt degree my cams....didnt even pull the front cover. Only thing that came off were the valve covers . Thats what I like about the cams, such an easy install.
Otherwise I wouldnt have done it, because if I were pulling the front cover down I would have went ahead and got aftermarket valve springs and stg 2 cams.

Nothing wrong with my above post at all...not rude in the slightest to you. But then you reply with this.

My God there is some misinformation on this website. You guys are confusing degreeing a camshaft with finitely adjusting a camshaft after it has been degreed. Make no mistake about it, a camshaft MUST BE DEGREED! It's not an option, it's not if you feel like it or not, it's not "well a couple of guys said they don't degree their cams.", it's an absoltute necessity. BTW, if you guys have actually talked to people that have installed camshafts in motors without degreeing them, do not EVER take their advice on cars or engines ever ever again.

Crane Cam's explantion, and it's a good one:

The term "Degreeing In Your Camshaft" means you are making sure the camshaft's position in the engine coincides with that of the crankshaft, so that their rotation is synchronized. This is the only way you will know if the rise and fall of the pistons properly matches the opening and closing of the valves, so the engine will run properly. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically.

If the circumstances were perfect, one would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed. In reality, you are dealing with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets), all with their own standards and tolerances. If these tolerances stack up against you, it could throw you out of alignment. Without degreeing the cam you can never be sure that the parts are in correct position. If you have the tools and expertise, we always recommend that the camshaft's position in the engine be degreed in.

Is There More Than One Way to Degree a Cam, and Which is Better?

Currently there are two popular methods for degreeing a cam: the centerline method, and the duration at .050" lift method. We believe it is far better to degree the camshaft with either method than not to degree the cam at all; but of the two methods, the duration at .050" lift is much more accurate.

The main problem with the centerline method is it has you finding the theoretical centerline of the intake and/or exhaust lobe and line up on it. It makes the basic assumption that the lobe you are checking is symmetrical, with its opening side being the exact same shape and size as the closing side of the lobe. The truth is that most modern lobes are asymmetrical, with the opening side of the lobe being much more aggressive and the closing side being more gentle.

Therefore, when you attempt to locate the middle (or centerline) of the asymmetrical lobe there is an automatic error factor. It could be as little as 2? off or as much as 6?, depending on the exact lobe shape and the procedure used during the degreeing operation. Neither does it verify that the camshaft has been properly ground with the correct duration lobes, which can drastically affect performance. Since the duration at .050" lift method is not affected by the asymmetrical lobe design, we believe it is the more accurate way to degree.

The above in size 5 is what started this dispute....it wasnt ME popping off, it was once again you with your "superior" knowledge, basically tell everyone not to listen to me or anyone else who agrees with me. I said what you quoted because you seriously ticked me off with the above, totally uncalled for, statement.

I agree with saleenGT here...you guys have been nothing but high and mighty in next to every post. And everytime I keep bringing you back to earth, quoting what was ACTUALLY said or getting support from VT themselves.....yet you guys never learn.


Mods, IMHO this thread is done....thread starter got the information required. EVERYONE can see where im coming from here and everyone but a select few can easily see my point. Those select few are also getting everyone riled up with their attitude (myself included) . I have tried to nicely humble them and give them the perfect chance to end this with honor and in peace with us both having our views, but respectfully leaving it at that, because it IS based on opinion and personal experiance. Iv also stated several times that I understand where they are coming from and I completely agree with them except for that one litte fact, but they still have something smart to say and try to down grade me and my opinion.

Someone tell me what else can I do? Thats why I vote for teh lock ...I really dont like repeating myself or having to go back and quote things I shouldnt even have to be quoting because its right there on the first page Thanks!

 

['01 Steed]

Do what you will, and be mindful that although Ford will pay for assembly mistakes made at Romeo/Windsor, VT will not, nor will Comp or Crower or any other aftermarket supplier.

 

[san~man]

This thread went to crap fast. Hope someone got something out of it other than reading the members arguing amongst each other.