Distributorless Ignition System thoughts

BlackVert · Jul 12, 2007

What does it take to convert our cars to a distributorless ignition system?

It'd be nice to get rid of the distributor.

I assume we'd need a crank trigger ...

SorsCode · Jul 12, 2007

answer me this and i'll help you out.

Which way do you want to go

Explorer/96-98 GT Coil Packs and still have plug wires

or go wild like me

And go Coil on Plug

Now you have 2 Ways of running this... You wanna stay OBD 1 or 2?

Theres alot of factors.. Ill give you the run down of my wifes car.. Its OBD1 running without an tuning software.

408W.. If you don't know, Ford never made a Cam Sync sensor for a 351W nor did they make a trigger wheel. What I did was took a 3.8L V6 99+ Cam Sync and removed the shaft and installed it into a Explorer Cam Sync 00+ 5.0L. There now you have a 351W Cam Sync.

Now we got that part down. Now you if staying OBD1 and stock Computer you will need a Iginition Module. For this you need an EDIS8 module you can get off of crown vics 93-96ish and t-birds 4.6Ls. For the Trigger wheel I bought a new Explorer Balancer and took my balancer to my machine shop and they pulled the Trigger wheel off and installed it onto the back of the 28oz balancer. They made a steel ring so they could press it onto the new balancer.

Wiring the fun part.. You can use the stock wiring and cut/hack and make it work. Or be an idiot like me with alot of time on his hands and make your own based off a OBD2 harness converted down to OBD1. Meaning changing the EEC connector. Still alot of wiring and repining but the 94-95 V6 already has the Iginition module connector built on. Now for an Injector harness i would recommend a 96-98 GT or 99-03 GT pending if using coil on plug or coil packs.

No matter which way you go it'll take time. I'm actually thinking of producing some cam syncs and wiring here soon if I get more time. Since I have it down to a science and no what to do.

My Opinion the Coil on Plug system is great. Loved how it idled and ran.. After driving it I will never go back to distributor ignition.. I'm going to be building another one for my 302 car this winter. For now going to run a distributor.

Danny

Any questions just ask.

SorsCode · Jul 12, 2007

BTW if any off it you don't understang just say.. I typed that up quick while i'm at work.

The Green GT · Jul 12, 2007

So what are the advantages of dist-less ignition?

I mean, dont top fuel dragsters use distributers?

SorsCode · Jul 12, 2007

The Green GT said:
So what are the advantages of dist-less ignition?

I mean, dont top fuel dragsters use distributers?

Very true top fuel dragster do u a distributor put basically lets call it a dummy distributor. Because its getting its spark signal from a remote sorce. The use Trigger wheels to fire. So really almost the same setup. The Dummy Distributor acts as a cam sync and the trigger wheel tells it when to fire. I can talk more on this when i get home.

Reason why I like distributorless is more accurate timing and less moving parts to fail.. All you have is a Crank Sensor, Cam Sync Sensor and ignition module.

BlackVert · Jul 12, 2007

i wouldn't be against going with a completely different computer (stock or aftermarket) and harness if it would be more straightforward (or less work) and get me better reliability and drivability. this buildup is all about reliability and daily drivability (with a ton of torque thrown in for good measure).

and i'm not too worried about controlling the tranny (i have a 4R70W) because i can use a baumannator or a manual valve body for that.

damn, with the 410, the 4R70W, all new paint and interior, a GPS, and a DIS, i bet this baby will be magazine worthy when it is done ...

Pokageek · Jul 13, 2007

SorsCode said:
answer me this and i'll help you out.

Which way do you want to go

Explorer/96-98 GT Coil Packs and still have plug wires

or go wild like me

And go Coil on Plug

Now you have 2 Ways of running this... You wanna stay OBD 1 or 2?

Theres alot of factors.. Ill give you the run down of my wifes car.. Its OBD1 running without an tuning software.

408W.. If you don't know, Ford never made a Cam Sync sensor for a 351W nor did they make a trigger wheel. What I did was took a 3.8L V6 99+ Cam Sync and removed the shaft and installed it into a Explorer Cam Sync 00+ 5.0L. There now you have a 351W Cam Sync.

Now we got that part down. Now you if staying OBD1 and stock Computer you will need a Iginition Module. For this you need an EDIS8 module you can get off of crown vics 93-96ish and t-birds 4.6Ls. For the Trigger wheel I bought a new Explorer Balancer and took my balancer to my machine shop and they pulled the Trigger wheel off and installed it onto the back of the 28oz balancer. They made a steel ring so they could press it onto the new balancer.

Wiring the fun part.. You can use the stock wiring and cut/hack and make it work. Or be an idiot like me with alot of time on his hands and make your own based off a OBD2 harness converted down to OBD1. Meaning changing the EEC connector. Still alot of wiring and repining but the 94-95 V6 already has the Iginition module connector built on. Now for an Injector harness i would recommend a 96-98 GT or 99-03 GT pending if using coil on plug or coil packs.

No matter which way you go it'll take time. I'm actually thinking of producing some cam syncs and wiring here soon if I get more time. Since I have it down to a science and no what to do.

My Opinion the Coil on Plug system is great. Loved how it idled and ran.. After driving it I will never go back to distributor ignition.. I'm going to be building another one for my 302 car this winter. For now going to run a distributor.

Danny

Any questions just ask.

Wow thanks for posting man. I'll keep you in mind.

SorsCode · Jul 13, 2007

BlackVert said:
i wouldn't be against going with a completely different computer (stock or aftermarket) and harness if it would be more straightforward (or less work) and get me better reliability and drivability. this buildup is all about reliability and daily drivability (with a ton of torque thrown in for good measure).

and i'm not too worried about controlling the tranny (i have a 4R70W) because i can use a baumannator or a manual valve body for that.

damn, with the 410, the 4R70W, all new paint and interior, a GPS, and a DIS, i bet this baby will be magazine worthy when it is done ...

Unfortuantley there is no aftermarket wiring for this. This is something you have to do or nicely ask someone .... Are you using the Tweecer now to control the 4r70W? If you are I would just stay with the computer you have and go from there. When I had the setup on the car for testing it drove nice and smooth and the the timing was always dead on.

If I knew more people would be interested in the wiring I would order the stuff needed to make a few sets and I would get some started. Only thing besides the wiring that took the longest was the Coil on Plug bracket that we had to make to mount the Coils.

Danny

juiced_94gt · Jul 13, 2007

SorsCode said:
Unfortuantley there is no aftermarket wiring for this. This is something you have to do or nicely ask someone .... Are you using the Tweecer now to control the 4r70W? If you are I would just stay with the computer you have and go from there. When I had the setup on the car for testing it drove nice and smooth and the the timing was always dead on.

If I knew more people would be interested in the wiring I would order the stuff needed to make a few sets and I would get some started. Only thing besides the wiring that took the longest was the Coil on Plug bracket that we had to make to mount the Coils.

Danny

I am very intrested in this conversion, about how much for a wiring harness would you say???

BlackVert · Jul 13, 2007

SorsCode said:
Unfortuantley there is no aftermarket wiring for this. This is something you have to do or nicely ask someone .... Are you using the Tweecer now to control the 4r70W? If you are I would just stay with the computer you have and go from there. When I had the setup on the car for testing it drove nice and smooth and the the timing was always dead on.

If I knew more people would be interested in the wiring I would order the stuff needed to make a few sets and I would get some started. Only thing besides the wiring that took the longest was the Coil on Plug bracket that we had to make to mount the Coils.

Danny

yes the 4R70W is controlled by the computer/tweecer. but it is not working right so i might go to a manual VB or baumannator if they can't figure out how to fix it.

i bet alot of people would be interested in this conversion. it is really cool and it improves the drivability and accuracy of the timing. i know i'd be very interested, if the price was reasonable and it was not too hard to do it.

can you get rid of the distributor completely then? and what about the TFI?

that would be killer. with that and this intake, i'd be winning shows (and races) left and right ...

SorsCode · Jul 13, 2007

with my setup you loose the distributor and the TFI

BlackVert · Jul 13, 2007

i want to do it! how hard is it?

illwood · Jul 13, 2007

Very cool information SorsCode. Personally, I want to eventually convert over to a DIS on my '94 GT. That will probably wait until I start the 331 buildup. Think it would be any easier or more difficult to do with an AEM computer?

WhiteDevil · Jul 13, 2007

Doesnt the bottom of the dizzy drive the oil pump. How do you get oil pressure?

BlackVert · Jul 13, 2007

coil on plug ... hmmm ... i dont know. i want this setup to be reliable, accurate (timing), durable, clean engine compartment, and daily driver friendly ... is coil on plug better in any of those ways? if so, then yes, i want coil on plug.

fordtech28 · Jul 13, 2007

there was a guy in mustang 5.0 magazine that did the coil on plug to his 91 mustang with a 331 he had to get a custom cam sensor mounted where the distributor sits at with a trigger wheel at the crank and a aftermarket computer it looks sweet and its super realible and fuel mileage friendly I've been thinking about do this too to my cobra for some time he said it took him two weeks of trial and error to get it perfect.

SorsCode · Jul 13, 2007

The Cam Sync Sensor is what drives the oil pump shaft.. Look at the 5.0L Explorers and Mountainers. They don't use distributors they run by cam sync and trigger wheel.. For BlackVert with the intake he posted. I would run the AEM with it. Because with the AEM you can delete the MAF and install a MAP sensor and go speed density. Going to Coil on Plug route is very expensive do to your looking anywhere to 45-90 a piece for a coil. times that by 8. Granted Accel and MSD both now make them so the prices are coming down but your still talking in the range of 400-500 bucks just for the coils. I recommend on a budget (who has one of those and drives a mustang) doing the dual coil pack setup like you find on the Explorer/Mountainer or 96-98 Mustangs. Down fall is you still have plug wires.

The problem is no one makes a Balancer with the trigger wheel mounted like the explorer in 28oz imbalance. Now if your N/A staying that way you can have the rotating assembley done in 50oz and just run the explorer balancer. Also another piece needed from the Explorer will be the timing cover. Need it just so you can mount the VRS sensor.

I've spent alot of time (years) working on this. I just need to get ahold of a few people to see if they can source me the harnesses to make them.

I do want to mention something on my setup.. If you decide to keep the stock computer OBD1 you inginition either cop or the dual coils will be a waste spark setup. Meaning 2 cylinders fire at the same time. If you go OBD 2 and use a 99+ Computer then I would definatly say going COP do to it can fire each coil individualy. the 99+ system doesn't support the dual coil packs you would need to run a 96-98 GT Computer. And down the run you could always change and keep the OBD 2 96-98 Computer but just wire it up for a Waste Spark setup.

Danny
I want to post the link that got me thinking of even doing this. http://www.superstallions.com/tech/elect/edis/edis.shtml

I would not recommend going to the OBD 2 setup if you have no way of tuning the EEC just because now you'll need to turn the rear O2 sensors off and some other little things here and there. Also pending the obd 2 computer year you have to tune for the return fuel system since 98+ is returnless..

Its a big headache but once you sit down and figure it out its not to bad.

BlackVert · Jul 13, 2007

here are some crank trigger kits that look like they might work for a 351 ...

http://www.msdignition.com/mag_1.htm

http://www.msdignition.com/mag_2.htm

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MSD-8640&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MOR-60004&autoview=sku

and would this be the camshaft position sensor you would use?

http://store.summitracing.com/partd...rt=MSD-2346&N=700+4294815127+115&autoview=sku

SorsCode · Jul 13, 2007

BlackVert said:
here are some crank trigger kits that look like they might work for a 351 ...

http://www.msdignition.com/mag_1.htm

http://www.msdignition.com/mag_2.htm

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MSD-8640&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MOR-60004&autoview=sku

and would this be the camshaft position sensor you would use?

http://store.summitracing.com/partd...rt=MSD-2346&N=700+4294815127+115&autoview=sku

With all those your going to have to run there Iginition System. You could possibly get it to work with the AEM but the AEM and MSD don't get along. Now the Cam sync is incorrect. MSD does make an aftermarket 351W cam Sync put i haven't seen it in person so not going to say if itll work with the way I do them.

http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_27_d_8522_8506_8521.htm

BlackVert · Jul 13, 2007

SorsCode,

What would you recommend? i don't want to have to pull the motor to get it rebalanced to 50oz for this.

didn't you do this with your 408? what did you do for that ... 50oz balance?

what are my options?

Distributorless Ignition System thoughts

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