Dyno Comprison LS1 vrs 5.0 Combos

5spd GT · Nov 15, 2007

Pokageek said:
Hehe ok. Yes, the ram air packages will gain HP that will not show on the dyno from the tunneling of air at speed > 25 mph. Amazing but that technology works. Pretty cool too! Great thread.

One thing I have noticed, for some dyno guys they have a fan blowing in front of the car, to help cool the cars down. However, I do not think it would be enough air pressure to utilize the ram air system. But then again, not all fans are created equal.

The ws6 and SS got a little different treatment. If I recall, the exhaust is slightly less restrictive on those cars, and I want to say that some SS's got a lid and the less restrictive cat-back too. I may be getting that confused with the less restrictive manifolds that came in the later years.

From the factory, the regular T/A and Formulas were rated at 310hp in the later years, and they gave the ws6 a 325hp rating.

An interesting note, is the long 6.1" rod, which cuts down on rod angularity, and their first and second rings use a 1.5mm ring. Just for a comparison, Ford typically uses 1.59 mm rings, aka 1/16". Thinner rings = less friction.

Just messing...

Pokageek · Nov 15, 2007

Yes, I heard that the LS1 oil pump hangs slightly out of the oil pan and sucks really hard allowing for more oil to get to the pistons but not too much and so that the crank does not dip into as much allowing for greater Flywheel HP numbers.

5spd GT · Nov 15, 2007

Pokageek said:
Yes, I heard that the LS1 oil pump hangs slightly out of the oil pan and sucks really hard allowing for more oil to get to the pistons but not too much and so that the crank does not dip into as much allowing for greater Flywheel HP numbers.

Yeah, I have read a few positives on the oiling. It has a gerotor oil pump like most modern engines, that is crank driven (behind the timing chain if I recall). I am fairly certain the 5.0L oil pump has the gerator design as well?, just by looking at the gears in it. The ls1 pump is typically replaced with an ls6 oil pump or similar when a h/c swap is done.

There were some small changes that helped cut down on crankcase windage, which can help power numbers. After all, that is why many guys use a windage tray for every little advantage. The ls1 block has some deep cylinder skirts along with the "short" oil pan, which keeps oil level high. I read a few threads about it not to long ago actually...

Higher flywheel numbers will get to the rear wheels as well.

I will say, I notice more uncertainty about high mileage on ls1's than I do these tough little 5.0L's

Many do not like the wimpy pushrods, rod capscrews (similar to bolts), and the thin piston ringlands. That is what I seem to gather...

I am just rambling on...

Pokageek · Nov 15, 2007

Actually, I was joking, lol. I honestly had no idea what I was talking about. So much for that!

nmcgrawj · Nov 16, 2007

Here is something i stumbled across. Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5.0/stroker combos can be impressive, but its not that "fair" to keep one car limited and another car fully modded. Unless u make it so u pick one car or another with a certain budget, there are going to be tons of modded LS1's out there....with as much "work" into them as the 347s. So it is good to see how much ground can be made up with out "smaller and older" parts, but at the end of the day, to be realistic, you gotta let each car have whichever mods "usually" pop up on them and go from there. Especially when comparing 347's to LS1s. I know if i had a LS1 and i had a 347 driver talkin trash to me, i would either be thinking or saying to myself, "wait until i upgrade heads". I couldnt care less that u had a iron POS stock and i had a decent aluminum head stock. To me you spent $2000+ on heads and i spent $0 and you might not be making more than me. Now let me spend $2000 on heads and we'll see where the pieces fall.

Yea.....the Trans am has been my favorite since they came out in 98

My car went to New Era Performance for a cam swap on monday and picked it up today. The car was dyno'd with just bolt ons before the cam swap. Mods were: Edelbrock Stepped LT's, ORY, Hooker catback, SLP lid + underdrive pulley, Ported TB, Fernco mod, LS6 intake, TR55 plugs, PCMforless tune, cutout, K&N filter, TB coolant bypass, 7.400" Manley pushrods, Comp 918 springs, Moser 9" rear(spool), MT DR's on 17" Z06 motorsports.

Bolt on results w/cutout closed: 353.67rwhp/354.07rwtq(SAE)

After this was done they did a cam swap, oil pump, double roller timing set, spring upgrade for me. I chose a custom cam from BRE(Bret Bauer). Specs won't be given but its a small cam, around the size of F13, G5X2, TSP torquer, etc. My concern was good driveability, torquey, fun cam that could be daily driven if need be, oh and around 400rwhp. Oil pump was LS6 unit. Springs were upgraded to PAC springs 1518, which is similar to the Comp 918's(beehive spring, but its nitrided and some other stuff....same seat/open pressure, coil bind, but good to .650 lift.) Also injectors were swapped out to factory 28lbers, since duty cycle was high with the 26's. Spark plug wires were also swapped to MSD's since some of my wires ripped when taking them off. Tuning was also done by Mike@ New Era.

Cam-Only results w/ cutout closed: 419.27rwhp/386.28rwtq(SAE)
....................... w/ cutout open: 421.15rwhp/389.18rwtq (SAE)

Picked the car up today and the cam drives like stock, with a whole lot more power. Drive home was 3+ hours and was very pleasant. I am very happy with this cam, Bret really came through with an awesome cam for me. Also it was a pleasure to work with New Era performance, communication was super with them, even being 200+ miles away. They went out of there way to take care of me and to make me happy, customer service is great. Mike Tuned this car flawlessly, and it literally drives like stock w/ just a hint of cam surge in 6th gear at around 1200rpm's...but very livable. I will be a return customer there. Big Thanks to Bret, and all the guys at New Era for a job well done. I should be hitting the track soon to get some baseline numbers before I start doing suspension work.

Look at post #16 for a quick sound clip. This is with the cutout closed through the hooker catback.

http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q188/KyleKappler/?action=view&current=Dyno-graphs.jpg

Pokageek · Nov 16, 2007

Yes, good points. Here is what I think we have determined in general:

#1 A H/C/I 5.0 can win a race agains an unmodded LS1.
#2 A modded LS1 will smoke an average H/C/I 5.0.
#3 A H/C/I 347 CAN easily smoke a modded or stock LS1.
#4 A H/C/I LS1 could ALSO smoke a H/C/I 347.

If you want a kick arse car from factory, don't buy a 94/5 stang, buy an LT or LSx car. Any other option is anything goes.

Dino Dino Bambino · Nov 16, 2007

5spd GT said:
I will say, I notice more uncertainty about high mileage on ls1's than I do these tough little 5.0L's

Probably because the LS1 is higher revving and owners will tend to rev the bejesus out of them, whereas a stock 5.0 has a serious case of asthma above 4500rpm so they don't see higher revs as often. Fewer revs = longer engine life.

5spd GT · Nov 16, 2007

Pokageek said:
Yes, good points. Here is what I think we have determined in general:

#1 A H/C/I 5.0 can win a race agains an unmodded LS1.
#2 A modded LS1 will smoke an average H/C/I 5.0.
#3 A H/C/I 347 CAN easily smoke a modded or stock LS1.
#4 A H/C/I LS1 could ALSO smoke a H/C/I 347.

If you want a kick arse car from factory, don't buy a 94/5 stang, buy an LT or LSx car. Any other option is anything goes.

Those are pretty big general statements, but I am sure you realize that I know what you mean...

1. Yep, a H/C/I can win a race, if it has the correct h/c/i set-up, weight. However, I have seen stock ls1's run 110 mph in the quarter But there are some h/c/i guys with lots attention to detail and deeper pockets that trap more so.

2. Yeah, I would say that is pretty true. "Smoke" is such a relative term anyways.

3. That depends on the set-up of course, but a cam-only/exhaust ls1 will outrun the vast majority of 347's out there. They are getting well over 400rwhp as Nate pointed out a couple post up.

4. I don't know if smoke is the right word, but I would give a slight mph advantage to the ls1.

In the end, there are so many variables

I thought an interesting sidenote was on the Trickflow kits for the 302 (370hp rating), and compare it to the ls1 kit (515hp rating). That is 1.48hp per cube at the engine for the ls1 kit, and 1.23 hp per cube at the engine for the 302. Take that for what you will. If I recall, they are getting 420-440 rwhp from it, so it sounded about the same ratio of power for the 302 kit.

final5-0 · Nov 16, 2007

nmcgrawj said:
Here is something i stumbled across. Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5.0/stroker combos can be impressive, but its not that "fair" to keep one car limited and another car fully modded. Unless u make it so u pick one car or another with a certain budget, there are going to be tons of modded LS1's out there....with as much "work" into them as the 347s. So it is good to see how much ground can be made up with out "smaller and older" parts, but at the end of the day, to be realistic, you gotta let each car have whichever mods "usually" pop up on them and go from there. Especially when comparing 347's to LS1s. I know if i had a LS1 and i had a 347 driver talkin trash to me, i would either be thinking or saying to myself, "wait until i upgrade heads". I couldnt care less that u had a iron POS stock and i had a decent aluminum head stock. To me you spent $2000+ on heads and i spent $0 and you might not be making more than me. Now let me spend $2000 on heads and we'll see where the pieces fall.

Nate

Very good points and I see the reasoning in them all

I did start out this thread by trying to prove ... or not prove ... how much fact
there really is when you see peeps on the net say ........

"Stock LS1's are so bad you can't keep up with them ... even with mods"

Of course ... you should expect a thread like this to evolve
and
Thats just fine with me as we have now gone from 5.0 to Stroker

Screw all the trash talk
This is not the Pinks show

I really want to be open minded and try to fairly look at
the differences :Word:

We can only build our block to match theirs
or
Transplant a Windsor

This thread seems to be focused around 347's so lets stick with
that option for a block to match their block with

For the sake of discussion here ... Lets ask these Q's

1) Do we think the LS1 heads and other parts are really efficient?

If the general answer is Yes

2) Tell me what heads and other parts supplied by Ford ... which would be
considered OEM ... could we use that the Chevy boys would not cry about?

Shouldn't take too long to find all the options

OK ... hopefully after answering that Q
We decide to go aftermarket :Word:

You see ... they would want to cry we are not using OEM parts
but
They would not want to talk about the efficiency of their OEM parts :Zip2:

So ... Here is the biggest Q of all here

3) Are aftermarket parts used on a 347 an advantage over the efficient
LS1 OEM parts?

Now ... I wanna stress my idea of aftermarket parts are typical Street
Car parts and nothing exotic or race related

Grady

5spd GT · Nov 16, 2007

Bullitt95 said:
Probably because the LS1 is higher revving and owners will tend to rev the bejesus out of them, whereas a stock 5.0 has a serious case of asthma above 4500rpm so they don't see higher revs as often. Fewer revs = longer engine life.

Your right about fewer revs = longer engine life, but I do not see that being the case.

I am not comparing a stock h/c/i 5.0 to an ls1. There are complaints of piston slap and sealing issues, rod capscrews, and the thin piston ringlands that allow them to "pinch (collapse)."

Stock rev limiter is 6,200 rpm if I recall.

Redline is a few hundred rpm below that.

The reason why I compare the 347 to the 346 is because of the closeness of cubic inches

And Grady, I say a big YES to your 3rd bolded question Aftermarket "347" parts have much better potential to make more power compared to OEM ls1 parts.

I also hope I do not appear to be "trash talking." That is not what I was trying to do

Pokageek · Nov 16, 2007

Who is TT? Sorry didn't notice any.

On the 347 vs Lsx debate, I find it hard to believe that a H/C/I 347 cannot be built that will be an even match for ANY H/C/I LSx. That is what is confusing me b/c at this point we are down to the blocks and building on C.I. if you are "redoing" an LSx and a 347.

Am I being an idiot or missing something? If so - sorry.

final5-0 · Nov 16, 2007

5spd GT said:
And Grady, I say a big YES to your 3rd bolded question Aftermarket "347" parts have much better potential to make more power compared to OEM ls1 parts.

I also hope I do not appear to be "trash talking." That is not what I was trying to do

When I brought up the trash talk

In no way did I think you David ... or anyone else for that manner ... has resorted
to juvenile behavior such as that

I was just looking for talk that is centered around what we know to be true

OK ... Now we are getting somewhere

A couple quick points I wanna make

1) The benchmark here is the STOCK LS1 which seems that they put out
310 to 325 rwhp on a Dynojet with a SAE calibration.

2) We are gonna match their block with a 5.0 block stroked to 347

The next part in our comparison is ... the parts we hang on our 347

Now ... David has said the aftermarket parts we bolt on our 347 put the
Chevy boys at a disadvantage.

Are we all agreed that the efficiency of the OEM LS1 parts are not at as
high of a level of efficiency as the sbf aftermarket parts?

I'm really looking for more viewpoints than David's here :Word:

Not to say I agree or disagree with David
cause
I really don't know myself

Grady

DDSTANG94 · Nov 16, 2007

Pokageek said:
Yes, good points. Here is what I think we have determined in general:

#1 A H/C/I 5.0 can win a race agains an unmodded LS1.
#2 A modded LS1 will smoke an average H/C/I 5.0.
#3 A H/C/I 347 CAN easily smoke a modded or stock LS1.
#4 A H/C/I LS1 could ALSO smoke a H/C/I 347.

If you want a kick arse car from factory, don't buy a 94/5 stang, buy an LT or LSx car. Any other option is anything goes.

I THINK UR RITE ON THE BALL!!

nmcgrawj · Nov 16, 2007

well "opinion" doesnt say what parts are better stock vs aftermarket, only flow numbers/ cross section etc. Matter. If we say fords aftermarket is the ls1 stock counterpart then we instantly admit the ls1 is superior when its aftermarket is used.

Just because we are comparing a 347 vs 346 short block that doesnt mean its "fair game" after that. Its still two COMPLETELY different designs for the motor. From what i have read from professionals those differences are what makes the LS1 motor superior to the ford. Just cause they have an aftermarket, it doesn't mean the aftermarket parts have equal potential.

final5-0 · Nov 16, 2007

nmcgrawj said:
well "opinion" doesnt say what parts are better stock vs aftermarket, only flow numbers/ cross section etc. Matter. If we say fords aftermarket is the ls1 stock counterpart then we instantly admit the ls1 is superior when its aftermarket is used.

Just because we are comparing a 347 vs 346 short block that doesnt mean its "fair game" after that. Its still two COMPLETELY different designs for the motor. From what i have read from professionals those differences are what makes the LS1 motor superior to the ford. Just cause they have an aftermarket, it doesn't mean the aftermarket parts have equal potential.

Again ... Very good points Nate

As discussed earlier in this thread and the other thread over in talk.

The sbf short block has not really changed all that much since its inception
so
That is what we have to work with when talking blocks

I do not know if ... "fords aftermarket is the ls1 stock counterpart"

They have heads that seem quite adequate to feed 350 cubes

We don't have any OEM heads that will do that for us
so
Do we not have to go with something like AFR 185's or similar

Again ... the idea is to match as closely as can be done .....
part for part.

David has earlier in this thread talked about the LS1 boys doing a different
exhaust.

If by saying that he means their OEM system is not all that great

I'm not advocating we hang a nice flowing aftermarket system on our 347
as that would not be fair

My point is to see what happens if we do up a 347 to match the LS1
as fairly as can be done.

I just got tired about seeing all the hype about the LS1
and
I wanted to lay out what was possible with what WE have to work with

Everybody that has knowledge on the LS1 ......

Go back to the first page and show where John's 347 with the small Edelbrock
heads has advantages over the Stock LS1

I'm looking to see where things are not fair between these two examples

I am trying to be open minded here and keep my Ford bias in check
so
Don't anybody feel they should not speak their mind here

Grady

final5-0 · Nov 16, 2007

This thread has lots of stuff to try and keep straight in your mind

I went back and looked once more and it seems David has already put up some
answers to the Q's I have been asking

Post #35

5spd GT said:
Nice chatting going on and interesting comparisons

I will say, as I have said before. With a camshaft, bolt-ons, and full exhaust, the ls1 is putting out well over 400 rwhp.

This is with a STOCK intake and STOCK heads.

Now imagine changing THEM out

I personally have not seen a 347 make the same power as the 346 ls1, with as close to equal variables between them.

Keeping in mind:

- Powerband
- Goals
- Belt Driven Accessories

I still would rather drive a mustang though, but the ls1 is not to shabby of a platform.

The ls1 parts are pretty expensive, if you actually get into the real aftermarket parts.

Post #38

5spd GT said:
Yep, we are reading the same thread It is a good one...

Of course a 347 can hit over 400rwhp, but I have not seen many , if any at all hit 400 rwhp with AFR 165's and similar parts to match.

The ls1 is hitting well over 400 rwhp with stock heads (similar to AFR 165's), and a stock intake and full accessories

The 347's with over 400 rwhp, all have larger heads than the ls1, larger camshafts, and I am not to sure on the intake and a comparison between it. I will have to look into that sometime later.

I never questioned that the 347 could hit 400 rwhp Pokageek, but I see ls1's doing more with less, rather than the other way around. There are TONS of h/c ls1's with over 450 rwhp. I do not see to many 347's strapping down that kind of power on a chassis dyno with the same type compression/powerband/accessories as the ls1 combinations out there.

But hey, I love the 331 and 347 and they both can get you moving in a hurry

Grady - Nope, I think your comparison graphs are great because you provide so many varieties for us to put together. Keep it up...

Anyways, off to study

Post#40

5spd GT said:
170cc on the exhaust?

That is what I was pointing out onlyme. I have seen heads that flow and perform similar to a stock set of ls1's, with more aggressive cams and more compression, less accessories, and still come short of an ls1 with a camshaft, longtubes, bolt-ons, (daily driven grind) and stock intake/heads, however good they are.

Thanks David

Anybody else agree or disagree

Grady

95BlueStallion · Nov 16, 2007

Fords are better than Chevys. Thats my opinion! I have no hard data though, just personal experiences, lol. Great thread Grady, its opened my eyes greatly to the power of the bowtie boys!

RAD · Nov 16, 2007

Seems like they gain a lot from "kidney" shaped cylinder head. Is there a head that is design like LS1's head but can be bolted down to Ford's shortblock?

Pokageek · Nov 16, 2007

I've been looking around and can't seem to find any real good examples of 347's in the 450rwhp range that aren't revving PAST 7k rpm...

To answer Grady's question.. and Davids,

"I will say, as I have said before. With a camshaft, bolt-ons, and full exhaust, the ls1 is putting out well over 400 rwhp.

This is with a STOCK intake and STOCK heads.

Now imagine changing THEM out"

I don't know if that is going to work that way...I mean SOUNDS like based on the research and Rad's post for example, that perhaps GM's lsx heads are so effiecient that the disparity between aftermarket and OEM on a Jevy is not going to be as wide as with a Ford. AND it sounds like FORD after market heads may need that larger volume to ofset the gap in efficiency that the Jevy heads have. AND to expand on this I also wonder if making the volume of the Jevy heads will make that large a difference... Some more questions I know but maybe it would get us closer to a well rounded answer.

Pokageek · Nov 16, 2007

Some more numbers WITH chevy aftermarket heads if it helps. I am seeing mostly high 300's to 405 or so rwhp with stock heads and c. and bolt ons.

Intakes look like they are already super efficient so in many cases Cam might as well = C/I. As to the TQ? Just FY- looks like Cubic Inches argument still wins every time:

-----

MTI Stealth II cam+Stage II LS6 heads makes 422.7 RWHP!

----------

O2 SS A4

Mac Mid w/ ORP
Vig 3000
MTI S2 Heads w/ X1 Cam
100 shot

489 RWHP
419 RWTQ
--------------------

98 t/a a4 3.23
294rwhp
327rwtq

just an mti lid and free mods at the time.
----------

02 Z -M6
lid and catback
324hp / 335tq
---------

'98 WS6 A4

K&N Filter
G2 Lid
Z06 85mm MAF
Smooth Bellow
Bauer Racing Ported TB
TB bypass Mod
LS6 Intake
Hooker Headers
2.5" True Duals w/X-pipe, Bullet mufflers
Tuned w/LS1 Edit @ AMS

(Unlocked)
347 RWHP
361 RWTQ
------------

02 WS6 m6

lid, SLP bellows, LM, Y-pipe

SAE:
327rwhp
360rwtq
------------------

02 M6 Z28:
Stock: 292rwhp 314rwtq
Lid and LM: 325rwhp 336rwtq
Lid, LM, FLP + heavy 315's on: 348rwhp 363rwtq
-----------

01 WS6 - M6

rwhp - 358.9
rwtq - 370.0

mods:
-KOOKS LT headers
w/ random tech 700000 series cats
-Loudmouth catback
-MTI Lid w/K&N
-BG Ram Air (no affect on dyno #'s)
-------------

98 Z28 A4

321 rhp @5600rpm
334 rwt @4600rpm

w/55000 on OD
during the summer
12.5 AF, Stock 3.23 rear
and stock 16 5 spokes

MTI LID, K&N Filter,
160 Thermo, Hooker Muffler only,
stock catback piping,
Hooker LT and ORY Pipe.
-----------

00 WS6 M6
Mods: SLP dual/dual
Everything else stock, with paper filter

320rwhp 333rwtq
-----------

stock automatic 99 Z: 288hp/301tq

------------

2000 SS

Comp Cam 222/222 563/563 114 Springs/Pushrods
SLP long tubes
High flow cats
3 inch Y pipe and exhaust
Granatelli Mass Air
NGK plugs
MSD hot wires
In line fuel pump 255
42 1/2 # Injectors Precision Industries
Trans cooler a must
ATI Pro Charger W/dual Intercoolers

501 Rear Wheel
476 Rear wheel torque

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colonel09-18-2003, 04:36 PM
That was a pickup of 71.6 RWHP at the peaks and alot more than that in other places (after the stock cam's peak.) Not bad for an A4 car with a cam that prompted me to accuse them of reinstalling the stock cam in my car when I first heard it (we left the idle where I had it with the stock cam at 675 RPM.) :nod:

For those of you who may think that a 116 LSA cam can't make TQ, this cam absolutely KILLED the stock cam all the way across the chart. It made 395 ft-lbs of TQ with a locked converter. The stock TQ was 360.

Here are some more details.

The car has the standard bolt-ons including QTP 1 3/4" headers. No bolt-ons were added with the heads/cam package.

The 422 RWHP was made through the QTP cuttout. With the cuttout closed and running through the stock exhaust it made 395.5 RWHP. The stock muffler is REALLY restrictive at this power level and the reverse split seems to really like the cuttout.

All runs were made with ALL original accessories intact. NO short belt. NO electric water pump. The air filter WAS in place. The converter was locked. The stock rockers and lifters were re-used.

Cam specs are 224/220 .581/.581 116 LSA

------------

"went to the dyno saturday to tune my friend's car (2002 WS6), numbers before were 419 rwhp and 379 rwtq. mods were,FLP LTs,custom 3 inch Y-pipe ASP pulley, ported TB, LS6 MAF, TR230 cam, and of course tuning. this is all going through a moser 12 bolt with 4.10 gears.

numbers after the absolute heads were 453 rwhp, and 402 TQ with the dual cutouts closed and 457rwhp and 407 rwtq with them open. "

------------

For fun, forget just heads, lets add a STROKER:
Mods and car..

99 FRC Corvette M6

382 Lunati Stroker Kit
X1 Cam 112 LSA
Stage 2 Heads w 2.02 1.57 Valves
LS6 Intake
Katech Throttle Body
ASP Pulley
FLP Longtubes w/ cats
B&B PRT Exhaust
Blackwing CAI
LS1 Edit Tuning

RWHP 455 @ 6400 RPMS
RWTQ 440 @ 4800 RPMS

--------------

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