EFI running from a PC?

65ShelbyClone · Jan 2, 2006

jackchan said:
but I wonder, couldn't you put a ZIF socket in the service port....and do it that way?

The J3 service port, right? Moates.net has an eprom board that plugs into it so there isnt any soldering. Go to Adapters/Chip Kits/Switchers > Ford Specific and its the first one. Its alot like a twEECer, except no direct PC hookup.

I believe the free twEECer software, among others, can handle the binaries. and send them to a programmer.http://www.moates.net/index.php?cPath=25

Rick 91GT · Jan 2, 2006

jackchan said:
http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/

this site will give you a lot of EFI info. I still am wanting at least EEC-IV chip burning capability so I can burn my own chips. Auto logic is nearly non existant.......you cant find mike wesley with a medal detector....these days!
And no one else wants to fool with older EEC-IV computers it seems. I wish someone would come out with a windows based chip burning program for at least the EEC-IV.
thanks
Jack

Autologic is no more, I believe Mike works for Diablo currently, you may want to try there...

65ShelbyClone · Jan 2, 2006

This thread has almost slipped to the third page already, jeez.

I got an ECU today, but its not a Ford, GM, or even Honda. It came out of a very early '90s Nissan 240SX auto. Its popular, but it might need a daughter board with a new eprom. I'll keep looking for better ECUs, but in the mean time I'll research this one and report back.

I havent given up on the scratchbuilt analog controller either. I found a simple schematic for a 555 timer "one-shot" circuit (scroll 1/2 way down to "Experimental Steps") that can adjust a pulse width by varying some resistors(MAP sensor!). jrichker, any opinions?

I also found out that I have a pair of IRF 540 mosfets that I think can be used for an injector driver.

jackchan · Jan 2, 2006

i found a burner on ebay today
not sure if it will do what i want it to do or not, gonna try and win the bid though!
jack

5.0fox · Jan 3, 2006

so what kinda enegine is this for and whats it going in atv or go cart?

65ShelbyClone · Jan 3, 2006

Hey jack, you found those $45 programmers on Ebay, didnt you?

5.0fox, Its actually going on a Briggs & Stratton 10hp that I have. If I can get everything to work, I may try to adapt it to a motorcycle or another heavily modified iron-block Briggs I have. I've been looking out for a positive displacemement waterpump(0-100hp) so I can make a dyno also. My initial goal is to see how much power I can get out of the stock Briggs engine with a turbo. My ultimate goal is 50hp on stock components, but I'll be satisfied with 25hp. Even 25 is high considering the splash oiling, air cooling, and flat head design. Its very likely that the rod will break or the cylinder will blow off the crankcase. I realize this is not directly "5.0 tech" related, but I didnt think any other forum had a better understanding of EFI .

For anyone interested, I found mention of a fascinating device that could be used in place of an EPROM and run with a PC acting as a piggyback; its an EPROM emulator. Google it. For my purposes this device may be even more versatile than an EPROM programmer. I may still try the "diy EFI" analog control, though.

Its possible I'll have to make a website documenting all of this. With how hard it is to find information on the topic, I may(?) be a pioneer in a field, at least to a certain extent.

jackchan · Jan 3, 2006

Hey jack, you found those $45 programmers on Ebay, didnt you?

lol not only did i find it I bought it. It may not be much to it, but hey, I have $51 worth of other junk laying around here too might as well add to my collection........

if it works........and my spare 9AL is able to be reprogrammed, it will be remarkable. Its ancient technology, so I should be able to get help from someone that knows what the deal is. It's gonna be a fun project just the same.
I'll post info as i find it out!
Jack

this is an edit, I found out that the other site moates.com has everything I was looking for and more. Thanks for that link!
Jack

65ShelbyClone · Jan 4, 2006

jackchan said:
I found out that the other site moates.com has everything I was looking for and more. Thanks for that link!

Glad to help I was surprised at all the stuff they have.

I went to Radio Shack today and got two 555 chips, sockets, project boards, capacitors, and resistors.

jackchan · Jan 4, 2006

my burner should be here within the week. But the most info, software i found was on that link you gave me. Everyone says, "dude" why would you want to go thru the aggrivation of burning your own chips" I said.........because I have at least 2 buddies who what chips, and you can't get anyone who use to burn chips for a A9L to ever respond to an email, plus I don't just want a rev limit changed, I want total control of my computer. (yea Im a power freak). lol
thanks again, I'll keep you guys posted.
Jack

65ShelbyClone · Jan 4, 2006

Thats cool, I'll probably get at least an EPROM emulator just to have, possibly a programmer and chips as well. I opened up my Nissan ECU and there was a big PROM staring back at me. It will also be very handy in the furure when I get a turbo 2.3(either SVO or TC->Pinto swap).

I realized I have something that can alredy handle lots of voltage, amperage, and high frequency: an old electronic speed control for R/C cars. Its really just a pulse width modulator for electric motors. If I can get it to run in mono stable mode, it wil save me alot of work.

65ShelbyClone · Jan 13, 2006

You get that EPROM programer yet?

I built my one-shot 555 IC circuit and got it to activate a TIP3055 transistor for the injector. I still need to get some parts from a 240SX like the TB, O2 sensor, and anything else that looks good. I burned up one of the 260cc/min injectors in testing, unfortunately.

I'm still looking for a cheap EPROM emulator.

HISSIN50 · Jan 13, 2006

I just wanted to thank you guys for keeping the thread going. I know it would be easy to take it to PMs/IM's, etc. Though I dont know enough to participate, I (for one) am still reading along and learning. I have this thread earmarked for future reference when I can make heads or tales of it.

Good luck with all of it!

65ShelbyClone · Apr 24, 2006

I figure I'll dig this back up with a minor update.

I decided the analog route is a waste of time. Now my efforts are being concentrated on chipping the Nissan ECCS. I just have to put a socket on the board, find a cheap 15w germicidal UV fluorescent tube for EPROM erasing, and see if I can use a combo of bootable Linux and an NIC(yes, network interface card) to burn chips the ultra ghetto way. I'll probably have more dough in my "dirt cheap" tuning project than I would with a real burner and eraser.

The PITA part of the ECCS is that it's sequential injection. That means sensitive crank angle sensors and trigger wheels that I'll be forced to fabricate if I can't eliminate them in the binary(because I don't have the originals). It is a mass-air setup, though, so it will be a little forgiving. The main concern is not getting enough signal because the small engine won't be moving enough air. I'll have to make a restrictor for the MAF(design almost identical to a Fox3 MAF) so more air goes past the heated wires and tune accordingly. None of the "expert" Nissan hackers can even tell me what the distributor trigger wheel looks like, let alone what would happen if I just eliminate the CAS(which is mostly just for ECU ignition control that I won't be using). At least it's a square-wave output so I can use my optical switches if desperation dictates.

Also, my turbo is going to hit the surge line before it hits even 50% efficiency. Bummer. Oh well, smoke'm if you got'em.

jrichker · Apr 24, 2006

The EPROM eraser I used was a UV florescent light from a fish tank. It didn't work quickly, but it did work.

65ShelbyClone · Apr 24, 2006

You're lucky if it took less than an hour to erase them. I've red numerous reports that blacklights and regular fluoros don't work and "UV" fluoros are hit or miss. Germicidal UV tubes are actually a murcury vapor filled quartz tube with no phosphor so the UVC wavelengths(~250nm, the cook yourself kind) can pass through.

If I can get a fish tank tube for less than $5, I'll try it. Otherwise a $15 germicidal tube will be more useful. I also don't want to toast the EPROMS I do have with really slow erasures or over-erasing.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 26, 2006

jackchan said:
my burner should be here within the week.

Welcome back to almost last year!

Which burner did you get? I got one, but the part numbers are all removed from the components and I need a picture of one that does.

I ditched the Nissan ECU and just went with MegaSquirt(in case anyone hasn't seen my sig). LOTS easier, but I need the EPROM programmer in order to use a J3 tuner.

Daggar · Dec 26, 2006

jrichker said:
You can download the contents of a Tweecer bin file to you PC. Spend $200 and you can buy an Eprom burner for your Windows PC. Remove the EEC from your car and find a good electronics tech to remove the control prom and solder a ZIF socket in the place where the prom was. Then you can install the prom you created on your prom burner from the modified Tweecer bin file. Put the EEC back in the car and go. Not hard at all if you have some good electronics/PC skills .

Question:

Isn't there more to it than that? I mean... Doesn't the TwEECer have firmware that "interprets" what is stored within the TwEECer slot and converts it to the machine language used in the Ford EEC?

Doesn't the TwEECer actually add to or subtract from what's in the EEC firmware?

For Example:

Let's say that the Ford EEC commands 20 degrees total timing at no load and 3000 RPM. You tell the TwEECer that you want 25 degrees at that load and RPM. Doesn't the TwEECer extrapolate the difference and add code to obtain the desired effect?

Please don't take my questions the wrong way. I truly do not know what the answers are and am wondering.

I have seen software out there that will convert a TwEECer tune to a chip for use on a Ford EEC through an EPROM burner but they were always "add on" chips that you plug into the back. I have not seen anything yet that could be used to replace the EEC CPU.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 26, 2006

Daggar said:
I have seen software out there that will convert a TwEECer tune to a chip for use on a Ford EEC through an EPROM burner but they were always "add on" chips that you plug into the back. I have not seen anything yet that could be used to replace the EEC CPU.

That's because Ford used one-off Intel components in the EECs. There is no way to replace those parts, so the only tuning option is a J3-port programmer. Moates.net has the lowest prices on J3s that I have seen.

vristang · Dec 26, 2006

Daggar said:
Question:

Isn't there more to it than that? I mean... Doesn't the TwEECer have firmware that "interprets" what is stored within the TwEECer slot and converts it to the machine language used in the Ford EEC?

Doesn't the TwEECer actually add to or subtract from what's in the EEC firmware?

For Example:

Let's say that the Ford EEC commands 20 degrees total timing at no load and 3000 RPM. You tell the TwEECer that you want 25 degrees at that load and RPM. Doesn't the TwEECer extrapolate the difference and add code to obtain the desired effect?

Please don't take my questions the wrong way. I truly do not know what the answers are and am wondering.

I have seen software out there that will convert a TwEECer tune to a chip for use on a Ford EEC through an EPROM burner but they were always "add on" chips that you plug into the back. I have not seen anything yet that could be used to replace the EEC CPU.

Daggar-
I am a Tweecer user, and by no means an expert on 'HOW' the tweecer works.
But, the impression I get is that the .ccf file that the tweecer creates, contains new settings that are loaded into the stock eec, which replace the factory .bin file settings.
I haven't gotten the impression that the tweecer 'adds' or 'subtracts' from the factory .bin.
But like I said, I am only a user not an expert on the 'how' part.

For clarification,
The TwEECer is the only EEC tuner that does not create a new tune in a .bin format. The TwEECer actually creates a .ccf file, which is a proprietary format exclusive to the tweecer.
PCMX, Moates, etc, all create new tunes in the .bin format.

I remember reading this thread earlier this year, and it's good to see it revived.
From what I understand now, the MegaSquirt is the best shrug: if not only ) option for controlling such an unusual and custom EFI system.

For controlling a system that resembles a factory Ford system however, it would still be effective to use one of the EEC tuners available.
Just my thoughts...
jason

65ShelbyClone · Dec 27, 2006

vristang said:
I am a Tweecer user, and by no means an expert on 'HOW' the tweecer works.
But, the impression I get is that the .ccf file that the tweecer creates, contains new settings that are loaded into the stock eec, which replace the factory .bin file settings.
I haven't gotten the impression that the tweecer 'adds' or 'subtracts' from the factory .bin.

The EEC J3 tuners don't do anything to the internal ECU memory because they cannot. They are ROM, or Read-Only-Memory; it cannot be erased or altered in this case. The new fuel/spark maps are on the chip in the J3 tuner. When the EEC detects something plugged into the J3 port, it only runs what is on the external chip.

I suspect the TwEECer software just "locks" a binary file up in a .ccf format and the TwEECer module can easily decode it and run the EEC. This keeps people from using the software as a free binary editor like PCMX.

I am probably going to order the Moates.net F2A programmer and do some testing on a PF2 Merkur ecu I have or my SVO.

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