engine build dilemma

[Shaolin Crane]

Would the supporting mods youre mentioning include a k member, steering rack, custom driveshaft and electric fans? Also, what about gauges and electronics i.e. computer..?

You dont NEED a new k member, there are motor mounts to mount into the fox k member. Again, steering rack isnt NEEDED, fittings or a new PS hose can be made to bolt up to the chevy one. Drive shafts arent expensive to have shortened. Electric fans, well thats a given on even a ford motor, should have one either way, same with the rack. The electrical can all be wired into the dash, the engine harness is separate from the dash wiring. Things like oil temp, water temp/level etc can all be wired to work with the stock gauges. Little elbow grease is traded for cash.

 

[90lxcoupe]

I'd like to see an actual cost sheet of a full LS swap, down to every last nut and bolt. Dropping a Windsor into a Fox is roughly $1000-$1500 in swap parts alone, and it is in the same engine family as the 302! I understand that the LS is a serious performer, but I have a hard time believing a LS swap is as easy or cheap as popular opinion is.

Also, the 400hp 6.0L is a Corvette/GTO engine, right? Not exactly falling out of trees as used, I'd think. The LS1 F-body engine is a little more common, but that's what, 310-325 hp, depending on the year....

the 6.0 is a truck motor, there are tons of them in yards, and the average price of them with electronics is 1000-1500, escalade motors have aluminum blocks, which go for a little more. LS3 heads can be had for 600 straight from a GM dealer, swap a cam in and they have been proven to make 550hp on the stock bottom end

Im not saying its cheap to build anything fast, but LS motors make HP cheaper then windsors. The way i look at it is if you are building anything with 500hp, you are going to have to build the rest of the 20 year old car around it. That being said, if i would have built my car with an LS, instead of my current motor, it would have been cheaper.

I like what i have, but knowing what i know now, if i could go back I'd buy an LQ4 and never look back.

Also, power adder cars can be really finiky, my car runs better and will smoke alot of blower cars NA, and its much simpler. When i had a blower on my 302 the thing would run hot all the time, no chance of sitting in traffic, when i put the built motor in it, overheating issues are non existant

Heres a link to some good builds
Mixed-platform Engine & Drag Racing Tech - Corral.net : Ford Mustang Forums

 

[NIKwoaC]

the 6.0 is a truck motor, there are tons of them in yards, and the average price of them with electronics is 1000-1500, escalade motors have aluminum blocks, which go for a little more. LS3 heads can be had for 600 straight from a GM dealer, swap a cam in and they have been proven to make 550hp on the stock bottom end

Im not saying its cheap to build anything fast, but LS motors make HP cheaper then windsors. The way i look at it is if you are building anything with 500hp, you are going to have to build the rest of the 20 year old car around it. That being said, if i would have built my car with an LS, instead of my current motor, it would have been cheaper.

I like what i have, but knowing what i know now, if i could go back I'd buy an LQ4 and never look back.

Also, power adder cars can be really finiky, my car runs better and will smoke most blower cars NA, and its much simpler. When i had a blower on my 302 the thing would run hot all the time, no chance of sitting in traffic, when i put the built motor in it, overheating issues are non existant

Heres a link to some good builds
Mixed-platform Engine & Drag Racing Tech - Corral.net : Ford Mustang Forums

The factory 400hp 6.0 isn't the truck engine, which is what I was getting at. Like you're saying, the truck engine needs a few modifications to get over that 400 mark. Also, are those heads assembled? For the pair? Do you keep the truck intake?

I agree with what you're saying, but I think popular belief is that you can drop a LS in a Fox and have a 10-11 second car for $2K, kind of like what Shaolin is getting at above, which I think is a stretch. All of the LS swaps I've seen are VERY serious builds that probably more than $10K went into to make it "right", including the cost of the engine, transmission, conversion, and go-fast parts. Obviously, a lot of those mods you'd be making regardless of engine choice (rear end, fuel system, etc), but like you said, it's not cheap to build anything fast.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

The factory 400hp 6.0 isn't the truck engine, which is what I was getting at. Like you're saying, the truck engine needs a few modifications to get over that 400 mark. Also, are those heads assembled? For the pair? Do you keep the truck intake?

I agree with what you're saying, but I think popular belief is that you can drop a LS in a Fox and have a 10-11 second car for $2K, kind of like what Shaolin is getting at above, which I think is a stretch. All of the LS swaps I've seen are VERY serious builds that probably more than $10K went into to make it "right", including the cost of the engine, transmission, conversion, and go-fast parts. Obviously, a lot of those mods you'd be making regardless of engine choice (rear end, fuel system, etc), but like you said, it's not cheap to build anything fast.

Lol, i wasnt getting at having a 10-11 second car for 2k, but i do believe i could do the swap for 2k, not including the go fast goodies. But thats me and i have no knowledge of the OP's mechanical skill. Also, the way its possible to do and the way i WOULD do it are very different

 

[undercnstrction]

Certainly! He is actually a member on here , but doesnt get on often. I will give him a call and or text and get the exact kit he purchased. I know it went on without much hassle, he got it tuned once and its running flawlessly and he loves it. Been on for about 3 or 4 months now.

great! thanx.

 

[undercnstrction]

I'd like to see an actual cost sheet of a full LS swap, down to every last nut and bolt. Dropping a Windsor into a Fox is roughly $1000-$1500 in swap parts alone, and it is in the same engine family as the 302! I understand that the LS is a serious performer, but I have a hard time believing a LS swap is as easy or cheap as popular opinion is.

Also, the 400hp 6.0L is a Corvette/GTO engine, right? Not exactly falling out of trees as used, I'd think. The LS1 F-body engine is a little more common, but that's what, 310-325 hp, depending on the year....

from what i've read so far, a lot of the cost (assuming you're staying with stock parts) is coming from the "support" pieces...,k-members, mounts, wiring harnesses, etc etc. there apparently are ways around this if you have some fabricating skills and willing to "rig" your own wiring harness.

as far as the 6.0, it looks like a large number of people are using the motors out of the trucks. the parts are interchangeable and they only weigh about 65lbs. more than the aluminum LS2. PLUS they are MUCH cheaper and much more easier to find. start mixing in certain factory heads, factory intakes and aftermarket cams these motors are making disgusting amounts of NA power.

 

[undercnstrction]

What i can do is hook you up with some people that have done it before. I know the things that make it alot easier are the AJE k member, manual rack, and electric fans.

that would rock if you've got some contacts that have done this swap. if i can contact them either through this board or via email i'd love to pick their brain a bit

I'm proud to be making 500 ish horse with all stock bottom end. Done easily with a couple to few thousand dollars total. Not bad, stay ford.

How? is it reliable?

LS1's with tranny's go for about 1500 here, figure another 500 in supporting bolt in mods and you'd be set

i'm acutally leaning towards using a 6.0 truck motor. i've had people tell me to stick to the true LS motors but the iron motors are making almost as much power for MUCH less money. if i was building a dedicated track car and the last bit of power would be needed it would be a no brainer. in my case the small amount of extra weight vs dollars spent to get a true LS1/LS2 may not be money well spent?

LS3 heads can be had for 600 straight from a GM dealer, swap a cam in and they have been proven to make 550hp on the stock bottom end

Heres a link to some good builds
Mixed-platform Engine & Drag Racing Tech - Corral.net : Ford Mustang Forums

LS3 heads per set are only $600? WOW? thanx a ton for that link. i looked a couple of the threads there and it looks like there is a ton of info in there! thanx again.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think popular belief is that you can drop a LS in a Fox and have a 10-11 second car for $2K, kind of like what Shaolin is getting at above, which I think is a stretch. All of the LS swaps I've seen are VERY serious builds that probably more than $10K went into to make it "right", including the cost of the engine, transmission, conversion, and go-fast parts. Obviously, a lot of those mods you'd be making regardless of engine choice (rear end, fuel system, etc), but like you said, it's not cheap to build anything fast.

your comment about the $10k builds is why i brought this question up. is it POSSIBLE to drop one of these motors into a fox (leaving it pretty much stock) for a reasonable amount of cash. i hate to keep repeating this same statement, but from what i've read from other builds, it is possible as long as you don't go nuts with the aftermarket parts. there are a few factory parts that can be used to REALLY wake up these motors. which for my purposes, i would be more than happy with.

Lol, i wasnt getting at having a 10-11 second car for 2k, but i do believe i could do the swap for 2k, not including the go fast goodies. But thats me and i have no knowledge of the OP's mechanical skill. Also, the way its possible to do and the way i WOULD do it are very different

this is exactly my point. i'm not shooting for a 10 second car and would never expect to get there on the budget i'm looking at. at most what i plan on doing to one of these motors is a different set of factory heads, a different cam and possibly a carb/intake setup. leave everything else alone.

like already mentioned, i'll still need the electric fan (which i already plan on doing)and a k-member (which i was already looking at doing). as for the gauges, i'm not 100% sure what to do about those yet. i've read some of them are compatible while others are not. i'll also have to worry about a different trans and clutch assembly which will definitely add to the cost. but i may also be able to sell off some of my 5.0 pieces/parts to offset a bit of that. if i play my cards right i can pick up a 6.0 motor for $225-$250 locally so i'll be money ahead there. i can also pick up the trans (most likely and auto trans out of a truck, the 4L60e i believe?) for the same money. i would most likely sell that trans off and try to find a t56.

this swap is getting more and more attractive all the time.

thanx for the opinions and input!

 

[fiveohwblow]

Certainly! He is actually a member on here , but doesnt get on often. I will give him a call and or text and get the exact kit he purchased. I know it went on without much hassle, he got it tuned once and its running flawlessly and he loves it. Been on for about 3 or 4 months now.

great! thanx.

How? is it reliable?



thanx for the opinions and input!

We have already been duscussing how, and as of now it seems to be VERY reliable I will get his info for you today.

 

[90lxcoupe]

480 hp for under 4,000, and thats 10 second power in a well set up 3200lb(with driver) car.

stock heads too

LQ4 Short Block - Dyno Testing - Car Craft Magazine

550hp for under $5,000. It would be near impossible to do that with a 351w, even with used parts, i dont think you could build one for that kind of money, cause chances are the motor is going to need a trip to the machine shop, but the LS stuff, no rings, no bearings, clearancing the block.... swap the top end and go man GO

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0705_chevrolet_ls2_l92_cylinder_heads/index.html

And 600 i think was an unassembled price for the ls3/l92 heads

 

[SVT32VDOHC]

LSX swap will cost you a fortune. Just sell the car and buy a 4.6L 99-04 2V or 96-98 4V car. Save up for a blower, add that and make 400-500RWHP.

 

[90lxcoupe]

LSX swap will cost you a fortune. Just sell the car and buy a 4.6L 99-04 2V or 96-98 4V car. Save up for a blower, add that and make 400-500RWHP.

So how much is it gonna cost to build a modular car with a blower? including the price of the car its gonna be around 12-15k... and then you have a car with no character whatsoever.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I have a hard time believing a LS swap is as easy or cheap as popular opinion is.....

It's not....no matter how much some people would like to believe it is. I did a price break down with a member here on parts during an arguement he and I were having about just this topic and sticking with the Ford mill always came out cheaper while making the same amount of power!

 

[NIKwoaC]

So how much is it gonna cost to build a modular car with a blower? including the price of the car its gonna be around 12-15k... and then you have a car with no character whatsoever.

An LS swap Fox can be either full of "character" or full of "****" depending on who you're talking to, haha. Either way, I feel like it's already played out. You have half a century of dudes dropping SBCs into hot rod Fords to blame for that.

 

[90lxcoupe]

An LS swap Fox can be either full of "character" or full of "****" depending on who you're talking to, haha. Either way, I feel like it's already played out. You have half a century of dudes dropping SBCs into hot rod Fords to blame for that.

See this is where i disagree with brand jumping, those guys are dumping SBC's into old fords not cause there going for performance, but cause its cheap and easy, just about every LS build ive seen has been pretty serious with results to back it up

 

[90lxcoupe]

It's not....no matter how much some people would like to believe it is. I did a price break down with a member here on parts during an arguement he and I were having about just this topic and sticking with the Ford mill always came out cheaper while making the same amount of power!

If this was true then the fact is people wouldnt be doing LS swaps. People dont do them to just piss all over fords

Ive built a pretty stout windsor, and i can tell you that if i went back and all i changed was the powerplant, i would have been able to do it for cheaper with more power

 

[Gearbanger 101]

If this was true then the fact is people wouldnt be doing LS swaps. People dont do them to just piss all over fords

Ive built a pretty stout windsor, and i can tell you that if i went back and all i changed was the powerplant, i would have been able to do it for cheaper with more power

I would imagine that the few that do, do so because they're either uniformed, or have bought into the hype that the LSX line was "touched by the hand of god" and is the only way to make any "real power"

Hop-up parts for the Windsor engines have come a long way in the last 10-15years. No longer are we bound by the limited performance of a set of iron GT40 heads and restrictive Cobra/GT40 intake or one of only about 5-alphabet camshafts available at the time. Those looking to really step things up are no longer forced to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for the ultra high dollar top end components (from the few more "race oriented" companies that dabbled in top end parts at the time), or perplexed by the limited choice of "mixed results" and otherwise unproven rotating assemblies that were just making their way into the market back then.

There are literally a dozen or more manufacturers out there now, supplying all flavors of performance parts from the intake, to oil pan and everywhere in between. Because the market has opened up so tremendously over the year and stiffer competition has made its way to the front of the line, the quality and selection of the parts has come up and the prices have come down. Down to the point where they now match the cost of the previously more inexpensive Chevy parts.

So sure...Source out a used truck engine/trans, then find a good set of heads, intake, inlet, gaskets, new bolts, sensors, wiring, cross member, etc.....then put together your custom K-members, mounts, steering and suspension components, exhaust systems, driveline parts, electronics, etc, etc and go for the LSX swap. What sounds easy to lay out in a couple of lines of text on some internet forum will kill you when it comes time to actually budget out every single part necessary to perform the swap...and those are just the parts you think about beforehand. I can't tell you how many times I've been caught with my pants down trying to source a part I need for a "custom" project only to realize that the local parts store/wrecker is close and that's if the part isn't on back order for god knows how long, or they even make it in the first place.

The 351W swap is as strait forward as any 5.0L install. Aside from the headers, mounts, oil pan and a few misc parts, the transformation is a cake walk in comparison to what needs to take place when performing a "Brand X" powertrain/drivetrain swap.

What you save in additional parts can go a long way towards a rotating assembly and a new top end the pretty much opens all kinds of performance doors for the creative builder. Not to mention the havoc it isn't playing on your sanity is worth its weight in gold alone.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

It's not....no matter how much some people would like to believe it is. I did a price break down with a member here on parts during an arguement he and I were having about just this topic and sticking with the Ford mill always came out cheaper while making the same amount of power!

I remember that argument with clay, and you and him were talking about NEW parts, in this instance we're talking about junkyard swaps, nice try though.

 

[Shaolin Crane]

...heads, intake, inlet, gaskets, new bolts, sensors, wiring, cross member, etc.....then put together your custom K-members, mounts, steering and suspension components, exhaust systems, driveline parts, electronics, etc, etc and go for the LSX swap
The 351W swap is as strait forward as any 5.0L install. Aside from the headers, mounts, oil pan and a few misc parts, the transformation is a cake walk in comparison to what needs to take place when performing a "Brand X" powertrain/drivetrain swap.

What you save in additional parts can go a long way towards a rotating assembly and a new top end the pretty much opens all kinds of performance doors for the creative builder. Not to mention the havoc it isn't playing on your sanity is worth its weight in gold alone.

I dont know who tol you that you need all that stuff to m ake the power with an LS engine, you dont need a "custom" k member, you dont even need one at all. You dont need another intake, the stock one will be just fine. Sensors and wiring are not that expensive, especially if you wire all the ford ones to work. You wont need any other suspension parts over what you would with any other power plant. Headers are going to cost the same for a LS swap as for a 351 swap.

The price of you sourcing a used 351(with no tranny i might add) will cost you 500-700 bucks, and assuming you dont rebuild it,(which you're going to need to do to out power the LS) Add in the cost of ANY decent head, which will you cost you a minimum of 1k, then a suitable intake, another 500, then a cam, then injectors, the the required rockers/lifters/springs, all that adds up to ALOT more than adding a cam and LS6 intake to a 6.0LS, remember now you have all that power with the 351w and you still need a tranny, but you'll already have a VERY stout t56 with the LS engine. Seems to be cheaper to me



Now this is the part where you say you dont know what the **** im talking about. And that im wrong and you'll go into all account why i should NEVER put an LS engine in a ford car, and you'll rattle off "facts" that completely make all my points of argument wrong, blah blah blah

 

[90lxcoupe]

I would imagine that the few that do, do so because they're either uniformed, or have bought into the hype that the LSX line was "touched by the hand of god" and is the only way to make any "real power"

Hop-up parts for the Windsor engines have come a long way in the last 10-15years. No longer are we bound by the limited performance of a set of iron GT40 heads and restrictive Cobra/GT40 intake or one of only about 5-alphabet camshafts available at the time. Those looking to really step things up are no longer forced to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for the ultra high dollar top end components (from the few more "race oriented" companies that dabbled in top end parts at the time), or perplexed by the limited choice of "mixed results" and otherwise unproven rotating assemblies that were just making their way into the market back then.

There are literally a dozen or more manufacturers out there now, supplying all flavors of performance parts from the intake, to oil pan and everywhere in between. Because the market has opened up so tremendously over the year and stiffer competition has made its way to the front of the line, the quality and selection of the parts has come up and the prices have come down. Down to the point where they now match the cost of the previously more inexpensive Chevy parts.

So sure...Source out a used truck engine/trans, then find a good set of heads, intake, inlet, gaskets, new bolts, sensors, wiring, cross member, etc.....then put together your custom K-members, mounts, steering and suspension components, exhaust systems, driveline parts, electronics, etc, etc and go for the LSX swap. What sounds easy to lay out in a couple of lines of text on some internet forum will kill you when it comes time to actually budget out every single part necessary to perform the swap...and those are just the parts you think about beforehand. I can't tell you how many times I've been caught with my pants down trying to source a part I need for a "custom" project only to realize that the local parts store/wrecker is close and that's if the part isn't on back order for god knows how long, or they even make it in the first place.

The 351W swap is as strait forward as any 5.0L install. Aside from the headers, mounts, oil pan and a few misc parts, the transformation is a cake walk in comparison to what needs to take place when performing a "Brand X" powertrain/drivetrain swap.

What you save in additional parts can go a long way towards a rotating assembly and a new top end the pretty much opens all kinds of performance doors for the creative builder. Not to mention the havoc it isn't playing on your sanity is worth its weight in gold alone.

By reading this its obvious whos uninformed. I know this isnt 1992 anymore, and theres things that the LS motors do that the fords cant dream of doing, better rod to stroke ratios, easier to work on, reusable gaskets, better cross section on the cyl heads. I know the motor wasnt touched by the hands of god, but its years ahead in technology

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Now this is the part where you say you dont know what the **** im talking about. And that im wrong and you'll go into all account why i should NEVER put an LS engine in a ford car, and you'll rattle off "facts" that completely make all my points of argument wrong, blah blah blah

Why would I say that? All someone needs to do is read one of your posts to realize you spend most of your time talking out of your hat and the rest of the time stirring the pot.

I've realize it’s really no fun to debate with you anymore, because when proven wrong, your "go-to move" is to say that I'm bullying you by throwing my Moderator powers around and/or forcing my opinion down your and (by some extension of your mind) everyone else’s throats. So go ahead....spin it anyway you want it. We'll let those reading this decide which of us is a more viable source when it comes to tech advice. It's really no skin off my nose.

For anyone who wants to do this swap thinking they’ll make more power for less money and hassle….go right ahead. Just make sure you’ve got a slew of tech oriented buddies to bounce ideas off of when unseen issues arise (and they will). Don’t forget to also go into this with an abundance of patience, plenty of down time and a lucrative income to work with when you rocket past “low budgets swap” mark you’ve previously establish, because some guy on the internet that’s “e-spending” your money promised you big power levels, for peanuts.