Engine builders, I need help.

[tylerrocks]

I geuss it's time to start looking at building up the 302, I've got a few questions concerning the bottom end. I am using a 302 roller block out of a 90' crown vic.

If the ENTIRE rotating assy is swaped out could a 28 oz. imbalance be used instead of a 50 oz. and vice-versa?

What is a rear main seal, and how do I know if I need a 2 piece or a 1 piece?

Forged 5140 I beam rods should be strong enough for the street right? what is are approximate power/RPM #s I can expect these rods to handle?

For the oiling system, what eles is requried other than the pump and pickup?

What the HELL is a plastigauge?

And finally, machine work: I know I need the cylinders bored, but do I need to have the crankshaft journals (is that the right term for the casting of the block where the crankshaft sits?) line bored? Do i need to have the block decked? Is there any machine work I didn't mention/dont know about? How much do your local shops charge for machine work? Anyone around West Texas?

EDIT: Are rotating assemblies built specifically for manual/auto transmissions?

I have an experience engine builder to help me when I get right down to it, I would just rather bother you guys with my questions than annoying him. So dont worry about my inexperience.

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[94CobraPace]

Yes, if change out the crank you can go with a 28 oz balancer. If you are gonna change the crank, might as well stroke it???

The rear main should be a 1 piece.

Pump & pick up for the right pan is all you need.

Plastic gauge is used for measureing bearing clearance. You put it on the bearing & install the cap, torque it down & don't turn the crank or it will mess up the measurment. Then remove the cap & it will have mashed the plasticgauge, then compare the width of it to the gauge that comes with the kit. It tell how much bearing clearance there is.

The machine shop can check to see if you need the block line boring & if the deck needs to be machined flat.

Cranks are not tranny specific.

 

[69Rcode_Mach1]

What he said.

 

[tylerrocks]

Thanks for the strait answer, Exactly what I needed to hear. Yes, I am planning on stroking, Will a 3.4" stroke have any clearence issues?

Tyler

 

[SoCalCruising]

I'll reiterate some things from the first reply, maybe add some stuff.

If the ENTIRE rotating assy is swaped out could a 28 oz. imbalance be used instead of a 50 oz. and vice-versa?
-Yes, but there isn't much reason to do that unless you plan to stroke the motor. 331 and 347 kits are balanced to 28 oz., or zero imbalance for the pricier setups - you don't need the pricier setups. Obtaining used rods/crank for a 302 is cheap, and hypereutectic pistons are also inexpensive and work fine for the street, no nitrous, no blower, 9.5:1 compression motors like what you will probably wind up with.

What is a rear main seal, and how do I know if I need a 2 piece or a 1 piece? Forged 5140 I beam rods should be strong enough for the street right? what is are approximate power/RPM #s I can expect these rods to handle?
-90 Vic will have a one-piece rear seal. Are you asking because of the block, or because you notice that some cranks are machined for one, the other, or both types?

For the oiling system, what else is required other than the pump and pickup?
-Pump (standard volume is fine if you use .0020 - .0025" main bearing clearance), oil pan pickup, and get a new, hardened oil pump shaft.

What the HELL is a plastigauge?
-Cheap way to obtain bearing clearances. If your engine builder friend has a 2-3" micrometer and dial bore guage, that's better. The mic plus careful use of a snap guage is also okay (snap gauges take patience and care to use - have someone show you how to use it properly as it takes some technique). Plastigauge is probably fine, though.

And finally, machine work: I know I need the cylinders bored, but do I need to have the crankshaft journals (is that the right term for the casting of the block where the crankshaft sits?) line bored? Do i need to have the block decked? Is there any machine work I didn't mention/dont know about? How much do your local shops charge for machine work? Anyone around West Texas?
-The amount of machine work depends on the condition of the block. Do you know how many miles were on the Crown Vic? There is a possibility that the block will not require boring - if there is no noticeable lip at the top of each cylinder bore, just a hone job may be adequate. Decking depends on whether the deck is warped. It might be okay. Same for the line bore (where the crank sits in the block - journals are the bearing surfaces on the crank, itself). You can pay $600 in machine work for a hi-perf application, or much less if you are careful, on a budget, and will keep the power down to 325-350hp (plenty for lots of fun)

EDIT: Are rotating assemblies built specifically for manual/auto transmissions?
-No.

If you keep the buildup reasonable: 302ci, stock crank/rods, stock heads or GT40p heads, or the like, and the hp as above, you can leave the fuel system alone, the rear-end alone (except maybe gears), cooling system alone, etc. and save a lot of money. If you do what I am doing: 331ci with 425-450hp, then a lot more MUST be done else you break a bunch of stuff. Plus, that motor is MUCH more expensive to build.

Anyway, I compliment you on your decision. You will learn a ton. Make friends with D.Hearne 'cause he is KING of El Cheapo Build-ups, and I say that respectfully. I like this book a lot:
Official Factory Guide to Building Ford Short-Track Power: How to Build Winning Short-Track Engines for Claimer Class, Spec Series, and Sportsman Racing (S-a Design) (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188408947X/002-9646010-3341648?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Take Care

Okay - just saw the 347 stroker intention. Do lots and lots of research on that motor. You can search this form and www.corral.net and get lots of opinions. That motor will break your tranny and rear end, most likely. Think hard.

 

[tylerrocks]

Yeah, I think I'll stick to 302 cubes. I would rather not have to install a 9" rear and a tremec. 350hp would be plenty for me I think. If there are no flaws, would the Crank/rods that came in the engine be sufficient? I know it was in running condition when it was pulled from the doner.

I asked about the rear main seal because I noticed that cranks were machined for one or the other (didn't know any were machined for both)

My friend is a semi-pro drag racer, I think I'll just let him show me the best way to measure bearing clearences.

I know that the block needs boring as I can feel a lip at the top of the cylinder. Is there any way I can measure/determine if the deck is warped?

Can gt-40p heads supply 350hp?

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[LMan]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/103-6836717-3595037?v=glance&s=books

 

[5.0ina66]

5.0 block = 1pc rear main.

You don't/wont need aftermarket rods. When I was looking into rod options for my '87 Crown Vic 5.0, it was stated that factory C8OE casting rods with nothing done to them are good for 400hp, and if they're prepped, and better bolts are added, 500hp is the new magic number. I understand that the F1xx rods are fairly weak though. FWIW, getting a set of rods worked costs pretty much the same as the $190 set of Eagle rods that Summit sells.

If you don't have a crank, a crank kit runs about $130 from AutoZoo, and includes the matching bearings. People have been known to GIVE C8 rods away on occasion, BTW. You could swap to 28oz, but keeping it 50oz means you can buy a stock flywheel for a 5spd Mustang, instead of a $275 28oz "conversion" flywheel. As mentioned by others, I'd just use a standard oil pump.

Get the block hot-tanked (dipped in a 100ºF vat of acid) to get all the old crap out of it.

You don't HAVE to bore the cylinders. 5.0s are famous for wearing great, and having little or no ridge in the cylinders, even at 200k. My 5.0 with 90k miles on it has no detectable ridge at all. Feel the cylinders with your fingers to see what the deal is, and if you see any nicks, as long as they don't catch your fingernail, you SHOULD be ok. Finally, check the taper with a taper gague to see if it's in spec. If there's a ridge/nicks/too much taper, then it needs bored. Overbore as little as possible!

GT-40P heads will do it, and ported do it even better, but have fun changing plugs! They're great heads, but Ford, in all their wisdom, changed the spark plug angles. amnit: They'll fit with GT40P-specific headers (hard to find for old Mustangs), manifolds, and K/351W manifolds. They'll fit with other headers too, but you've gotta do some screwing around to keep the plug wires from frying, and changing spark plugs is easiest with a cut in half socket I'd go with ported E7s, plain GT40s (ported is better ), ported 289 heads, or 351W heads.
HTH
--Kyle
PS: A TFS #1 cam & springs is the ticket. $250 for the cam and springs is about the best deal out there, and it makes very good power. I'd Re-use the stock roller lifters (but store them in a can of ATF while there out, to keep them from sticking)

 

[D.Hearne]

tylerrocks------- you've gotten some excellant advice here already, not much that I can add, other than what I posted on your 260 thread about using a factory reman shortblock as a foundation. Yea, lots of people don't trust em, myself included, but the one's from City Motor Supply in Dallas are priced so low, that you're not out much if you blow it up. That was my main impetus for trying one, and it held up to everything I threw at it for over a year and in the end, it was Ford's block that stopped it,(well sort of, it still ran, just had a milkshake in the oilpan) not CMS's workmanship. You can't rebuild one yourself for what they sell em for, actually you could easily buy two of theirs for less than you'll spend doing one on your own. But if you just want to do it to also learn what's involved, then go for it. And as I said before, either store the 260 properly or find it a good home, I'm sure some rich collector type guy would pay you well for it, perhaps enough to cover the cost of your 5.0 buildup.

 

[94CobraPace]

Most long tube headers will clear the GT-40P heads. It's the shorty headers that have the problems with the spark plugs & burnt wires.
Ported GT-40P will suppert 350 hp. A 306\306 will have to spin higher to get the hp over a 331 or 347 to get the hp you want. There are 50 oz balancers that have the 3 holes for the V groove pullies also.

 

[tylerrocks]

Thanks to everyone for the advise.
D.Hearne: Thanks for the heads-up on CMS, I checked thier prices and I'm very pleased. Which part number did you get?
94CobraPace: so you think the fitment on a set of tri-y headers will be ok?

Edit: I forgot to update you guys. I just bought some 2 hour old GT-40Ps with aftemarket springs good to .600, 1.7 Ford Racing roller rockers and the pedistal mounts (is that what you call them?), hardened pushrods, head bolts, correct sparkplugs, and a freshly ground stock camshaft locally for $650. I am happy now.

Tyler

 

[D.Hearne]

Thanks to everyone for the advise.
D.Hearne: Thanks for the heads-up on CMS, I checked thier prices and I'm very pleased. Which part number did you get?
94CobraPace: so you think the fitment on a set of tri-y headers will be ok?

Edit: I forgot to update you guys. I just bought some 2 hour old GT-40Ps with aftemarket springs good to .600, 1.7 Ford Racing roller rockers and the pedistal mounts (is that what you call them?), hardened pushrods, head bolts, correct sparkplugs, and a freshly ground stock camshaft locally for $650. I am happy now.

Tyler

I bought a short block spec'd for a 90's pickup/van. Same assembly as a Stang, but had hypereutectic pistons instead of forged. These worked fine, even with the 7500 rpm burst's with the Canfield heads and Vic Jr. intake. If you do go with one of these shortblocks, just remember to change the rod bolts to ARP's. The 302/5.0 5/16th's rod bolts are the weak point. Also if you have the chance to pick a shortblock from stock ( I did from a local parts house that stocks several CMS blocks) Try to get one with C8OE rods. The later F1TE rods are weaker, I've seen a couple so far that tossed rods, these rods broke at the broached bolt faces, instead of breaking the bolts. 90's Pickup/van blocks are roller's also like the Stangs. The 94-97 models even had a roller cam (the F4TE "high torque" roller) that was just a step below the HO cam in terms of lift and duration and with 1.7 rockers, the lift specs equal the Stangs cam.

 

[SoCalCruising]

Try centralcoastmustang.net for GT40p-specific headers for early model 'Stangs. They are the only ones that I know of that stock these, although others might.

You're on your way ....