foxmustangman
Member
I'm curious to know what you guys did with the MAF? Did you take it apart and integrate it into the manifold somehow, or did you just by-pass it all together?
Fastest 5.0 (pushrod) Kenne Bell Mustang?
- Thread starter Bullitt347
- Start date
wp331
Member
Walt and ??? your name is, by the way I'm Shawn guys and thanks again for answering all my questions you guys have been a gold mine here, and I thank you again for you efforts and dedication and ability to think out of the box.
There's only a couple of guys right now trying to make big power with a PR KB setup myself being the first on the corral 2 years ago who took the A2A concept and made it work.
Tinman4807 who I posted his video who made great power and number from a 347 with a little 2.2 and meth. Great power and track times he deserves alot of credit for what he did.
Another guy over at the corral 1992vert name is Troy with his 331 and 2.1 and meth he has made great power and is working this winter on more upgrades in airflow. I done a lot of idea sharing with him great guy and very helpful.
94kbvert on the corral he is from Texas and I must say like you guys he stops at nothing to make power with a kb on his 347. He has taken his project very far and you may have seen pics of his setup. He has done the 2.8L conversion and now uses the A2A concept with large 3.5" pipe. His inlet has changed and is a large custom 5" with throttle body moved over to the pressure side, great idea. He just sent me saying he has made the Trick flow R intake work with the KB setup and his A2A and has picked up 60hp with that alone compared with the gt40/cobra lower.
I just want to say glad to know all of you and it's always fun exchanging ideas and experiences.
There's only a couple of guys right now trying to make big power with a PR KB setup myself being the first on the corral 2 years ago who took the A2A concept and made it work.
Tinman4807 who I posted his video who made great power and number from a 347 with a little 2.2 and meth. Great power and track times he deserves alot of credit for what he did.
Another guy over at the corral 1992vert name is Troy with his 331 and 2.1 and meth he has made great power and is working this winter on more upgrades in airflow. I done a lot of idea sharing with him great guy and very helpful.
94kbvert on the corral he is from Texas and I must say like you guys he stops at nothing to make power with a kb on his 347. He has taken his project very far and you may have seen pics of his setup. He has done the 2.8L conversion and now uses the A2A concept with large 3.5" pipe. His inlet has changed and is a large custom 5" with throttle body moved over to the pressure side, great idea. He just sent me saying he has made the Trick flow R intake work with the KB setup and his A2A and has picked up 60hp with that alone compared with the gt40/cobra lower.
I just want to say glad to know all of you and it's always fun exchanging ideas and experiences.
Hey Shawn, good to know you. My name is Vernon as Walter pointed out in his first post here. Anyway it is great to be able to share information. Even tho you are using a different setup, there are also many things that are common concerns. There is certainly a lot of HP to be gained by going to a Trick Flow R lower. In your case that would require a different hood, and a lot of other custom fab work, but is worth it in my (and Walters) opinion. It would be interesting to know what internal components were used for the 363 cid stroker kit and what the compression is. At some point in the future we are headed that way. Did you decide on a fuel system upgrade yet, as you are certainly going to need one.
My Motor was built by Jim AKA Woody at Fordstrokers very nice guy and one hell of an engine builder. It's a Dart SHP block with all forged internals and internal balanced crank H beam connecting rods, probe 14789 pistons perfect circle/plasma moly top. I use the harland sharp 1.6 RR specific for TW heads and my new cam setup will be Custom grind by Brain Freezy for my new setup with the 205 cnc heads with the larger 2.8L KB. The heads are getting the new comp cams 26056-16 beehive springs recommended by Brain set at 170 seat pressure.
I have worked on my fuel system and have upgraded all the lines to areoquip pushlock -8an feed -6an return with a new Mallory fuel rail kit I have the new 340LPH intank pump with my BAP feeding the system. I think this should work as I had plenty of fuel before with my 255lph intank and BAP at 550whp 685TQ. Also I did a full wire upgrade with dedicated relay at the trunk with 10 gauge wire feeding the pump big ground and 8 gauge from the battery to the relay so voltage should be more consistant now.
I'm still in debate on how to plump the rails. The mallory directions feeds front pass side -8an and crossover -6 at the rear with a -6an leaving the driver rail before the last 2 injectors. I have seen many and heard that at better way is -8an feed to -6 Y feeding both rails and then out the other end with -6 an back to a Y and -6an to the FPR and -6 back to the tank. My understanding is that the fuel really does not flow around the rails in any direction but rather the system from the FPR and rails acts more like a fuel holding system, which is set at the pressure you desire ie 40 psi. The injectors relieve pressure and so does the return port on the FPR, but the fuel never really flows in a direction. It took my a while to understand this concept, do you guys see it this way as well.
I have worked on my fuel system and have upgraded all the lines to areoquip pushlock -8an feed -6an return with a new Mallory fuel rail kit I have the new 340LPH intank pump with my BAP feeding the system. I think this should work as I had plenty of fuel before with my 255lph intank and BAP at 550whp 685TQ. Also I did a full wire upgrade with dedicated relay at the trunk with 10 gauge wire feeding the pump big ground and 8 gauge from the battery to the relay so voltage should be more consistant now.
I'm still in debate on how to plump the rails. The mallory directions feeds front pass side -8an and crossover -6 at the rear with a -6an leaving the driver rail before the last 2 injectors. I have seen many and heard that at better way is -8an feed to -6 Y feeding both rails and then out the other end with -6 an back to a Y and -6an to the FPR and -6 back to the tank. My understanding is that the fuel really does not flow around the rails in any direction but rather the system from the FPR and rails acts more like a fuel holding system, which is set at the pressure you desire ie 40 psi. The injectors relieve pressure and so does the return port on the FPR, but the fuel never really flows in a direction. It took my a while to understand this concept, do you guys see it this way as well.
The best way for sure is to feed into the front of the rails on both sides and then exit out the back to the regulator and then back to tank. My own car is set up with dual -10 feeds from the fuel tank to twin Aeromotive 40 micron (ORB-10 red) fuel filters. Out of fuel filter -10 to Pierberg (Porsche 911 turbo) fuel pumps. Out of the fuel pumps with -8 to to Y block. Out of Y block to single -8 to a large CM fuel filter (100 micron). Out of CM fuel filter -8 all the way to a Y-block on passenger side inner fender. Out of the Y block with 2 -8 feed lines to front of fuel rails. Out of rear of fuel rails -8 to Aeromotive regulator. Out of regulator with -6 return all of the way to fuel tank. I have the Aeromotive 5.0 sumped fuel tank that has all of the provisions for the AN fittings. Walters fuel system is simular with the same fuel pumps but his routing is a bit different. He can clarify that when he gets a chance. The Piergurg fuel pump work awesome for several reasons. First off, the flow rating for the 2 Pierburg pumps is enough to support just over 1,000 HP. as proved by Walters car. Second, they are stock Porsche pumps that were designed for constant duty. Third, they are quiet, real quiet. And finally they last a hell of a long time. I believe Walter has had his fuel pumps on his car for over 5 years with nothing more than a yearly fuel filter.
wp331
Member
Hey Shawn, nice to get to know you. My fuel system feeds into the pass side front crosses over to the driver side from the rear of the passenger side rail and exits to the regulator from the front of the driver side rail.... no issues as of yet with 83 lb injectors...
This is fundamentally true, although fuel does have to "flow" to get to the injector.
The way I see it is the fuel flows from the tank to the chamber of the FPR, this chamber has many ports all which can be used for either feed to rails or return or a remote mounted FP gauge ect. The fuel that is stored in the fuel system from that chamber will flow or be feed in the direction of least residtance. So if one end feeding the rail is larger than the other it will tend to feed fuel from that end say -8an to-6an, but really is also not wrong to feed both ends of the rail with the same size, in this case the fuel would flow equally to both ends and only the injectors and the return port when activated via the right pressure allow the fuel to leave the rails. So in a way I think the fuel would not flow in one side and out the other.
I'm not sure why I'm trying to make this point with you guys, I think more I'm trying to convince myself I understand it this way.
I'm not sure why I'm trying to make this point with you guys, I think more I'm trying to convince myself I understand it this way.
As far as the Liquid cooled KB what is the normal routing and cooling for that. I know you guys said you use the engine coolant fromt he bypass hose, but is normally how they are cooled. Also what happens if that say is on it's own system with a small pump and the pump stops working would the case heat up and kill bearings or at that point would it just operate as the non LC units would. I'm tying to uderstand if it would be dependant on constant water flow or damage could occur.
Do you feel the LC unit was worth it in the end. I know KB's claims AIT reduction and heat reduction, but I wonder if it is really worth it.
Also it;s very hard to source a KB conpressor only without buying the kit. KB won't sell them to me, I've talked with Kennedydynotune and they said they could sell me one but would be added cost. Do you have a good source to buy it and maybe better price.
Do you feel the LC unit was worth it in the end. I know KB's claims AIT reduction and heat reduction, but I wonder if it is really worth it.
Also it;s very hard to source a KB conpressor only without buying the kit. KB won't sell them to me, I've talked with Kennedydynotune and they said they could sell me one but would be added cost. Do you have a good source to buy it and maybe better price.
I believe the LC is really the way to go and worth the extra money. Since the drive is in front, naturally more heat is generated there. By cooling that area, not only are the drive gears going to last longer but you do not heat the air coming toward the front of the case. So overall case temperature is equalized and cooled. I believe that the overall life of the compressor is extended. Is it necessary for a street car? Maybe not. If your going to punish the blower and extract every last bit out of it and do not want to worry about it wearing out, then it is well worth it. Outside of building a road race engine with a Kenne Bell, I don't think you can treat one harder than we do. I know it was a huge difference between the 2.2 and the 2.8LC. Some of it has to be because of the LC case. And so far durability has not been an issue. We did send the 2.2 back for a re-build/refresh during the time it was used, I doubt we will have to do the same with the LC.
As far as sourcing on.........Walter begged and pleaded and harassed Kenne Bell until they relented and sold just the compressor, no snout, no kit just the compressor. Was NOT cheap, but what can you do? We were determined to build the car the way we wanted, and did not want to compromise.
As far as sourcing on.........Walter begged and pleaded and harassed Kenne Bell until they relented and sold just the compressor, no snout, no kit just the compressor. Was NOT cheap, but what can you do? We were determined to build the car the way we wanted, and did not want to compromise.
Well my hats off to you guys...My perssuasion skills did not meet the challenge for KB they said no and No many more times and I've bought 2 new units from them in the past, go figure. Anyway I do have a contact with Kennedydynotune.
Something I've never figured maybe you guys know. The sound we love so much that scream, howle, screach the whine that comes from the KB that makes your hair curl and goose bumps rise. Where does it come from? is it the rotors, the gears or little HP demons inside saying rippy ki raah mother F..ker.
Something I've never figured maybe you guys know. The sound we love so much that scream, howle, screach the whine that comes from the KB that makes your hair curl and goose bumps rise. Where does it come from? is it the rotors, the gears or little HP demons inside saying rippy ki raah mother F..ker.
It is not the rotors, as they do not touch anything, not each other, not the case, nadda. There may be some gear noise, but the bulk of the sound is from the supercharger compressing air. The screw type supercharger is the only one that actually compresses the air as it travel forward through the screws. The roots (Magnuson, TVS, Eaton et al) blowers do not compress air internally. They just move more air from top to bottom so to speak. Same with centrifugal blowers and turbo's. They just push air from one point to another. Some of it is the inlet and outlet manifold material, shape and thickness. Much like a Ferrari's sweet sounding exhaust has more to do with their use of titanium manifolds/headers than with the actual engine. Although high rev's certainly helps, and of course a overhead cam engine sounds different than a pushrod engine ect.
Side note: When we did get the LC from Kenne Bell, they sent the wrong one! We had ordered the "H" and they sent the "S". Had to send it back and get them to send the right one. They even paid the shipping costs!
Side note: When we did get the LC from Kenne Bell, they sent the wrong one! We had ordered the "H" and they sent the "S". Had to send it back and get them to send the right one. They even paid the shipping costs!
Not really louder that we can tell, at WOT going down track, the exhaust is the dominant sound. We rarely drive on the street to get a perspective from that point. I can only imagine that since it is compressing more air, that it would be louder. Your car at WOT would be a more realistic test/comparison. And of course, you will be spinning the supercharger fewer rev's for the same boost level, so it is hard to tell.
Just got off of the phone with Walter and came away with some information that is important for your combo. I asked specific questions regarding the changes that had to take place to use the 2.8LC. The biggest difference is in fact the outlet manifold. Only the front 2 outer manifold bolts are used. The rest of the bolt pattern is different. The outlet manifold is larger (front to back) and required our outlet manifold to be re-fabricated to make it bolt up. So you are looking at probably making a complete new outlet manifold from scratch.
Also the reason we were able to get a supercharger from Kenne Bell, was that we were using it for racing purposes only. Walter sent pictures and video clips of what he was using the car for. Kenne Bell is a bit leery of selling just the compressor for a street car because of the potential of someone taking their supercharger and building a complete "kit" and calling it a Kenne Bell kit, or marketing it as such.
The other thing we discussed was the complete change in "tune" and the difference in data log information from the dyno compared to the racetrack. Our air charge temp readings are going to be very stable since we run ice water through the intercooler, whereas your air charge temps are going to be completely different going down track compared to dyno numbers. You just cannot load the engine and supercharger on the dyno like you do at the track. Also if you are going to running more boost, your air temps will rise accordingly.
Also, after seeing the Mallory fuel rail kit that you bought, we would caution against using that kit due to the fuel return being before the last 2 fuel injectors in the system. We both highly recommend using a system that feed into the front of the rails and exits out the rear of the rails to the regulator, or worst case feed into the front of one rail, out of the rear of that rail and into the rear of the second rail and then out of the front of that rail into the regulator. You are going to be stepping into a HP range that requires everything be right and is less forgiving of mistakes. I hope this helps. I am not saying you have to do it that way, but it had been bullet proof the way we have done it in our application. Never hurts to have a second opinion.
Also the reason we were able to get a supercharger from Kenne Bell, was that we were using it for racing purposes only. Walter sent pictures and video clips of what he was using the car for. Kenne Bell is a bit leery of selling just the compressor for a street car because of the potential of someone taking their supercharger and building a complete "kit" and calling it a Kenne Bell kit, or marketing it as such.
The other thing we discussed was the complete change in "tune" and the difference in data log information from the dyno compared to the racetrack. Our air charge temp readings are going to be very stable since we run ice water through the intercooler, whereas your air charge temps are going to be completely different going down track compared to dyno numbers. You just cannot load the engine and supercharger on the dyno like you do at the track. Also if you are going to running more boost, your air temps will rise accordingly.
Also, after seeing the Mallory fuel rail kit that you bought, we would caution against using that kit due to the fuel return being before the last 2 fuel injectors in the system. We both highly recommend using a system that feed into the front of the rails and exits out the rear of the rails to the regulator, or worst case feed into the front of one rail, out of the rear of that rail and into the rear of the second rail and then out of the front of that rail into the regulator. You are going to be stepping into a HP range that requires everything be right and is less forgiving of mistakes. I hope this helps. I am not saying you have to do it that way, but it had been bullet proof the way we have done it in our application. Never hurts to have a second opinion.
Thanks again for the insight and recommendations. I am planning on the blocking that fuel rail return port and feeding front to back. Like you said it eliminates any fuel questions there and makes it rock solid.
As far as the 2.8L LC case bolt pattern the guy from Texas running the 2.8 said the bolt measurement front to back the widest outer pattern was 4.75 inches center to center on the bolt. Could you guys measure yours and give me a center to center bolt measurement. I was planning on cutting my manifold down the center and widening it to match that bolt pattern.
As far as the 2.8L LC case bolt pattern the guy from Texas running the 2.8 said the bolt measurement front to back the widest outer pattern was 4.75 inches center to center on the bolt. Could you guys measure yours and give me a center to center bolt measurement. I was planning on cutting my manifold down the center and widening it to match that bolt pattern.
Well I got all chop saw happy today, and the old 3" pipe was cut off the end of the KB intake first. I then went into the KB intake itself and cutdown the upper side to make room for the expansion area. Since I will be using a shorter SN95 drive snout to move the longer comressor case from the firewall the entension area must to be 1.73 inches to make the blower snout and pulley line up with the crank pulley. The Fox snout is 314mm and the SN95 snout is 270mm from mounting surface of the front case to the center of the pulley when installed. It's likey I will cutout the Kenne Bell embossing thats left so I can raise the roof area of the intake. I'm thinking of using 1/8 inch aluminum to raise the roof area this will give the KB a great sound allowing the screaming demons to be heard. Also I measured the thickness of the upper cast roof area and it's really thick, nearly 3/8" this will give more room inside like 2 1/4 inch as opposed to the 1.5". Also if you look at the pics the opening where the 3.5" pipe will mate with the widened intake it should have more than enough flow at this point. hope you don't mind me posting pics here, if so just LMK.
Attachments
wp331
Member
Shawn,
Careful about how thin of aluminum you use to recap it. That sound is cool but it is the pulse of compressed air coming out of the blower. If you spend a lot of time at wot or repeated wot cycles...aka drag racing those hot, high pressure pulses tend to pulverize aluminum and crack it...ask me how I know
. I have the cap on the blower outlet right now I will get the measurement tomorrow, got to go to work!
Careful about how thin of aluminum you use to recap it. That sound is cool but it is the pulse of compressed air coming out of the blower. If you spend a lot of time at wot or repeated wot cycles...aka drag racing those hot, high pressure pulses tend to pulverize aluminum and crack it...ask me how I know
. I have the cap on the blower outlet right now I will get the measurement tomorrow, got to go to work!
