for you mustang Gods...

gutlessTahoe · Dec 17, 2004

I was wondering, since I wont have enough money for a few YEARS to get aftermarket heads, can you get stock heads to flow pretty good, say with a ported lower intake manifold done by Tmoss, or should I just wait for ever to buy the aftermarket heads? If ported heads will work aright for a N/A car, what approximate gains can I see with the ported lower intake manifold and ported stock heads? I have my exhaust done headers back and a fenderwell intake and MAF conversion.

BaXTeR3221 · Dec 17, 2004

BaXTeR3221 · Dec 17, 2004

You can get the stock heads to flow pretty well, but with the money you can spend on porting, you could pick up a set up gt-40p heads, which will probably flow a little better. You could also check the classifieds for heads that have already been ported or some goods heads for a good price. No sense doing the heads twice if you can spend a little bit more money the first time. Usually gains are around 20hp from the intake and maybe another 30 from heads if you go with the gt-40's or ported heads. Gains will obviously be better the better the parts are and all the gains depend on the rest of the combo, and every car is different.

90mustangGT · Dec 17, 2004

The thing about the cheaper GT40P heads, is that you will need different headers due to the spark plug angle, bumping cost up and option's down, and they don't flow that great to make it worth it. The biggest problems with the stock heads flow is the exaust ports, take one look at the ports and you will see what I mean. The worse part is the EGR bump, which just acts like a speed bump for air trying to escape. I have heard that just grinding down that bump is worth 20HP. The stock valve springs are another fault, but the GT40's would have the same problem, they valve float way too early and can't take a big cam very well. The stock upper inake flows pretty good, but the lower only flows 130cfm per runner, probally the biggest bottleneck. I run Thumper's heads with the upgraded valve springs, big difference. With the Edlebrock intake, and B cam I ran 8.4 at 85mph in the 1/8th on a bad motor.

HISSIN50 · Dec 17, 2004

right, the lower is perhaps the biggest bottleneck, as Jason said. Tom does some nice work!
i might get ahold of Thumper and ask him his thoughts and get some pricing.

good luck.

tmoss · Dec 18, 2004

gutlessTahoe said:
... what approximate gains can I see with the ported lower intake manifold and ported stock heads?

The most I've seen from the Thumper/tmoss stock ported lower combo is 255RWHP and 311RWTQ which are some pretty stout numbers from ported stock "junk".

d/x · Dec 18, 2004

tmoss said:
The most I've seen from the Thumper/tmoss stock ported lower combo is 255RWHP and 311RWTQ which are some pretty stout numbers from ported stock "junk".

this is a prime example of the number game .
if you decide to go with a thumper/tmoss combo(i think you should) and match it with a decent cam(tf stage 1)you will be very happy with the setup.
don't get caught up in the number game.
make sure you tune it.
its all about a good combo/tune

rubberneck · Dec 18, 2004

i ported a set of stock heads on the exhaust sides on my old combo, ground the hump down and everything. with longtubes it made only 229 hp but 342 ft lbs of torque. i wouldnt waste real money working stock heads, but if you have a dremel and a couple metal bits have at it.

DarkMesa8 · Dec 18, 2004

Ask Willie (previously RedSN95Vert, now something like allmotor) about the GT40P heads and what his vert ran with them. He's faster now, though, but still...

monsterstang70 · Dec 18, 2004

I got a set of E7's if you wanna buy them. They r good for porting.

tmoss · Dec 18, 2004

d/x said:
this is a prime example of the number game .
if you decide to go with a thumper/tmoss combo(i think you should) and match it with a decent cam(tf stage 1)you will be very happy with the setup.
don't get caught up in the number game.
make sure you tune it.
its all about a good combo/tune

He asked for numbers........But here is some more relavent numbers - the above combo that used a Steeda #19 cam made an AVERAGE of 292 ft-lbs over a 1,600-5,000 rpm band and AVERAGED 281ft-lbs through 5,600 rpm. Average numbers are what the "numbers" game is all about - area under the curve.

d/x · Dec 18, 2004

tmoss said:
He asked for numbers........But here is some more relavent numbers - the above combo that used a Steeda #19 cam made an AVERAGE of 292 ft-lbs over a 1,600-5,000 rpm band and AVERAGED 281ft-lbs through 5,600 rpm. Average numbers are what the "numbers" game is all about - area under the curve.

TMOSS,that "sounds" like a nice street motor.
WHAT DID IT RUN IN THE 1/4?
HOW DID IT PULL COMING OUT OF A CORNER IN 3RD?
numbers are that numbers,they don't prove nothing.
here's an example:
i have also had a stock longblock with a performer upper/65mm t-body.
race pullies
3.73
5spd
full exhaust
crane interceptor II
on a 275-50-15 DR run 12.70's.
i don't care about the rwhp numbers and he shouldn't either.
learn to tune and drive.get the most out of what you got.
i'm not triing to disrespect you TMOSS.just triing to get a point across.

HISSIN50 · Dec 18, 2004

d/x said:
TMOSS,that "sounds" like a nice street motor.
WHAT DID IT RUN IN THE 1/4?
HOW DID IT PULL COMING OUT OF A CORNER IN 3RD?
numbers are that numbers,they don't prove nothing.

i don't care about the rwhp numbers and he shouldn't either.
learn to tune and drive.get the most out of what you got.
i'm not triing to disrespect you TMOSS.just triing to get a point across.

hmm, dont think i would have gone down that road. about your latter comments: sure, learn to drive what you have. but if one has more capability (power), then the performance (with said skill) will reflect this.
of course taking the car to its full capabilities will make the most of it, whether it is a stang or 3 cylinder turd.

in your latter comments you asked what 1320 times he had, etc. then later you said numbers dont matter.

i see your point and am not sure what the disagreement with Tom was - you are making a different point (other than saying numbers dont matter). maybe i am biased, because the result Tom was going for is exactly what i would too. i would say that the way he has his car set up, it is easier to drive towards its limits (even driven a turbo with huge lag? - it will scare the poo right out of you because of the lack of consistancy).

i see your point and i think what you said goes hand in hand with what Tom said. drive the car as best you can, but more power will enhance the car's abilities/times. cool?

tmoss · Dec 19, 2004

Well, not caring about the numbers seems like trying to hit a target in the dark. Most people want a certain ET or MPH from their car. To do that, you have to know what your car with driver weighs and how much power it takes to get there. Then to get to that ET, you need to have driving skills and traction/chassis prep.

That is BASICS and everyone should know them to attain a goal. To say ignore the numbers is to go at a goal with no knowledge of your resources. It's OK if you want to do it that way, but I and others would not. To each his own...........

Jameasun · Dec 19, 2004

so is there a formuls to figure out this Hp needed to get a certian trap time and speed?

3000lb car with driver wanting to go 12.5 in the 1/4. Speed is where it lands.

Jameasun · Dec 19, 2004

nevermind did some searching and found the calculators

1993SSP · Dec 19, 2004

Hey gutless tahoe, Im going to throw in my opinion on this thread. What type of car are you shooting for? A nice dependable street car or a drag monster? My best advice is if you are wanting a nice dependable street engine and money is an issue, talk with Tmoss and Thumper460. Ive got the Tmoss intake and a Thumper combo with E cam, all I can tell you is their work is excellent and makes the most out of stock parts. You have to just plan out what you want and mostly how much money you want to spend. Take a pad of paper, write down the costs per factory parts per aftermarket parts and compare the two, that usually helps me figure things out, also compare the good and the bad of stock vs aftermarket, which will mostly be the price! Good luck, and follow thumpers and tomoss's advice, everything they told me has been nothing but the truth about their work!

90mustangGT · Dec 19, 2004

Here is a point:

Thumper Heads: $595
Tmoss Intake: $130
Total: $725 and includes shipping in most cases.

TFS TW Heads: $1000+
TFS Street Heat $399
Total: $1399+

AFR Heads: $1300
Performer Intake $480
Total $1780

So basically, that's twice as much for the aftermarket combo. Don't forget you have to get stud mound RR's with the aftermarket heads, thats at least $200 more. It seems most end up upgrading the valvetrain on the TFS's, I am not going to say why because I don't have a set but most have to do this for some reason, bumping thier price up a lot. Not all of us have as much money as others to spend. Also, to build a fast car, there is more to it than the motor. I have known people that concentrated 100% on the engine and that is it, and they ended up with a unimpressive car that never added up. I have learned that there is so much more to building a fast car than the motor, it all has to match.

For the thumper heads I would recomend the valve spring upgrade which would add $100. You could also add the GT40 Valvetrain, which 25thmustang has had some success without even porting for another $180. That's a fully built head for under $1000, the built aftermarkets will be over $1500, and yes much better but without supporting components the car won't run good enough to make up for the cost.

To each his own. I have not been convinced that the thumper heads are junk, and I have run a lot of cars. I have watched cars with wicked combos on paper just get wasted by a "junk" combo.

thumper460 · Dec 22, 2004

you guys are right!! combo and money!! get the most out of what you can afford!! right?? which ever to choose.. rock it too the limit!! tune ... tune... tune!! and you'll be happy with your combo!! I also agree.. the "paper thing" and the HP thing some times get blown way out of portion !! build what you can afford... tune it correct and have fun!! that is the whole key...FUN!! and if you need to hand some one his doors... Spray it!!

Just me...................

Thumper

oz · Dec 23, 2004

I'm totally happy with my ported e7 combo. It's very streetable and has impressive low end torque. It pulls hard to ~6000 rpm too.

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