Ford's total timing....

[nmcgrawj]

This might be a question that the tweecer guys can answer. Im wondering how do u calculate the total timing while cruising. I've got WOT. Im just thinking about getting the 04 PMS upgrade and if i do that, i can turn standalone on at a lower rpm...and it would be running on its own timing.

 

[final5-0]

I think I understand what you are trying to do Nate

At a steady cruise, the spark jumps around a bit jfyi but, I don't think you are really asking about that.

If you are at a light throttle acceleration, you may be in CL operation. Not sure if that info helps any

TPS position, load factor, and rpm I guess would be the main factors that come into play here.

Does any of the above stuff help you with your plans Nate

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

I think I understand what you are trying to do Nate

At a steady cruise, the spark jumps around a bit jfyi but, I don't think you are really asking about that.

If you are at a light throttle acceleration, you may be in CL operation. Not sure if that info helps any

TPS position, load factor, and rpm I guess would be the main factors that come into play here.

Does any of the above stuff help you with your plans Nate

Grady

Yea its helping...just trying to figure it out on my own before i go ask the PMS gods over at stangtuning

This is the thing, i can set the standalone feature to come on at a specific RPM and TPS value. So i could say 2000rpms and 30% TPS that way the stock computer will still control the timing with its tables.

But i guess my question comes for those times inbetween the TPS value needed to maintain "cruise" and WOT or High loads. When the PMS hits standalone its 25* plus whatever changes i make. So i guess i was trying to figure out if there was a "average" number to aim for or what. Cause i dont wanna have too much.

I guess another thing i could ask is with guys who lock out their timing...what do u lock it to? And does locking it out hurt or help part throttle conditions? Is there a big difference? Cause in essence, on a very simple level, the PMS does lockout the timing at 25* in standalone...although u can add/subtract it, but if u leave it at 0...it will be at 25* all the time in standalone.

 

[final5-0]

Yea its helping...just trying to figure it out on my own before i go ask the PMS gods over at stangtuning

I understand Nate

I usually try and do stuff on my own but hey, sometimes you just gotta ask for a helping hand I guess

This is the thing, i can set the standalone feature to come on at a specific RPM and TPS value. So i could say 2000rpms and 30% TPS that way the stock computer will still control the timing with its tables.

I can see how you could do this

But i guess my question comes for those times inbetween the TPS value needed to maintain "cruise" and WOT or High loads. When the PMS hits standalone its 25* plus whatever changes i make. So i guess i was trying to figure out if there was a "average" number to aim for or what. Cause i dont wanna have too much.

Now this stuff ... Here is where I have always been in the dark a little bit about how the PMS tunes

I have not seen much talk from PMS folks about LOAD. In our cars, LOAD is what controls much of the tune.

Maybe you could briefly explain how you know what load you are at since you don't deal with datalogging

Or another way to ask my Q would be ..............

How do you get your bearings when dealing with issues like you now describe

I guess another thing i could ask is with guys who lock out their timing...what do u lock it to? And does locking it out hurt or help part throttle conditions? Is there a big difference? Cause in essence, on a very simple level, the PMS does lockout the timing at 25* in standalone...although u can add/subtract it, but if u leave it at 0...it will be at 25* all the time in standalone.

I have never dealt with the locked spark thing.

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

Now this stuff ... Here is where I have always been in the dark a little bit about how the PMS tunes

I have not seen much talk from PMS folks about LOAD. In our cars, LOAD is what controls much of the tune.

Maybe you could briefly explain how you know what load you are at since you don't deal with datalogging

Or another way to ask my Q would be ..............

How do you get your bearings when dealing with issues like you now describe

Grady

Well, the PMS has different tables for what load (or set of tables) it is using. So like LL, ML, HL, and WOT for my pms. I just read on stangtuning after searching that part throttle timing for a certain condition was low to mid 20s so the PMS would be close with its 25* locked out. Probably wont even tell a difference.

I think ill let the stock eec handle the light stuff down low in rpms...ill probably take over at 25-3000rpms.

Besides, i think i may be over thinking this...making it harder than it is. Ill leave the hard detailed stuff up to u Tweecer fellas

 

[final5-0]

OK Nate

That info makes more sense to me now

Bottom Line Here is

The EEC works likes it works no matter what method you use to make adjustments.

The various tuners we all use are nothing more than interfaces. You just have to pick the interface that you can best relate to and that is a good bit of what it all boils down to.

I have been thinking about what you are trying to do.

Lets talk a bit about this if you want to

Lets take this set of conditions to talk about for an example.

Steady cruise in say third gear at say 1500rpm

At that moment your load is gonna be very light

You then go to wot

Very quickly, like less than 1 sec, your load is gonna climb to something like 75% of its max load.
At this moment your rpm is gonna be about say 2k.
At this moment your tps is max
At this moment you will be in OL

Sounds like to me you have load, tps, and rpm to use in making your adjustments.

I'm gonna stop at this point and see if you think I'm on the same page as you are Nate

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

OK Nate

That info makes more sense to me now

Bottom Line Here is

The EEC works likes it works no matter what method you use to make adjustments.

The various tuners we all use are nothing more than interfaces. You just have to pick the interface that you can best relate to and that is a good bit of what it all boils down to.

I have been thinking about what you are trying to do.

Lets talk a bit about this if you want to

Lets take this set of conditions to talk about for an example.

Steady cruise in say third gear at say 1500rpm

At that moment your load is gonna be very light

You then go to wot

Very quickly, like less than 1 sec, your load is gonna climb to something like 75% of its max load.
At this moment your rpm is gonna be about say 2k.
At this moment your tps is max
At this moment you will be in OL

Sounds like to me you have load, tps, and rpm to use in making your adjustments.

I'm gonna stop at this point and see if you think I'm on the same page as you are Nate

Grady

Yea we're on the same page. My thoughts werent about at WOT though....more like part throttle. And that, if u just barely satisfy the rpm and TPS requirements for the PMS to go into standalone, how close is the 25* to what Ford wants? So for like, passing on the freeway...no cruise but not WOT. I was thinking about how to maximize it without walking the thin line of detonation.

Does that make any sense?

 

[final5-0]

Yea we're on the same page. My thoughts werent about at WOT though....more like part throttle. And that, if u just barely satisfy the rpm and TPS requirements for the PMS to go into standalone, how close is the 25* to what Ford wants? So for like, passing on the freeway...no cruise but not WOT. I was thinking about how to maximize it without walking the thin line of detonation.

Does that make any sense?

Great Nate!

I'm 99% with you except for one thing below.

how close is the 25* to what Ford wants?

Are you saying you think you have a spark value of 25* at a steady cruise highway speed in a rpm range of about 2000 to 2500 rpm?

Sounds like your focus is you have just barely met the requirements for PMS stand alone take over?

Maybe this can be of some help

Below is a Cobra unmodified spark table that will give you approximate spark values. Does this give you any ideas or make you wanna further this discussion?

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

Great Nate!

I'm 99% with you except for one thing below.

how close is the 25* to what Ford wants?

Are you saying you think you have a spark value of 25* at a steady cruise highway speed in a rpm range of about 2000 to 2500 rpm?

Sounds like your focus is you have just barely met the requirements for PMS stand alone take over?

Maybe this can be of some help

Below is a Cobra unmodified spark table that will give you approximate spark values. Does this give you any ideas or make you wanna further this discussion?

Grady

Well my concern is that its easy to tune for WOT or close to it. My focus is on the point of just past cruise(where i can make the stock eec still control) and just past the PMS' point of taking over so im like accerlating at 1/4 throttle...similar to what u would do to pass someone on the freeway.

That graph is a GREAT help! Just to clarify,the loud gets higher as the numbers on in the left column get smaller? Or is it the other way? Thats the only part that had me confused.

Now i gotta admit, if i had the program to datalog with the PMS i probably wouldnt be asking this question. Another +1 for datalogging

 

[final5-0]

Well my concern is that its easy to tune for WOT or close to it. My focus is on the point of just past cruise(where i can make the stock eec still control) and just past the PMS' point of taking over so im like accerlating at 1/4 throttle...similar to what u would do to pass someone on the freeway.

I understand and I am with you here

That graph is a GREAT help! Just to clarify,the loud gets higher as the numbers on in the left column get smaller? Or is it the other way? Thats the only part that had me confused.

Other Way Around! Top row would be WOT

IIRC, You be a Windsor kinda guy. I say that cause My stock block combo would highway cruise (steady) at about a load factor of .35 give or take a few. If I accelerated from that steady cruise with about a 1/4 throttle change, I'd guess the load would jump up to about .7

Since you have more cubes than me, I'm not sure how that would effect things but IIRC, you are NA like me so you may be able to draw some kind of conclusion here.

Now i gotta admit, if i had the program to datalog with the PMS i probably wouldnt be asking this question. Another +1 for datalogging

I could say something here Nate

Heck I could say a whole lot here

I'll just leave it at this

It's nice to see someone other than Tweecer peeps say datalogging has real merit

This is a very good example to show how it can help

anyway

Is this helping you find a solution to what you wanna do

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

I understand and I am with you here



Other Way Around! Top row would be WOT

IIRC, You be a Windsor kinda guy. I say that cause My stock block combo would highway cruise (steady) at about a load factor of .35 give or take a few. If I accelerated from that steady cruise with about a 1/4 throttle change, I'd guess the load would jump up to about .7

Since you have more cubes than me, I'm not sure how that would effect things but IIRC, you are NA like me so you may be able to draw some kind of conclusion here.



I could say something here Nate

Heck I could say a whole lot here

I'll just leave it at this

It's nice to see someone other than Tweecer peeps say datalogging has real merit

This is a very good example to show how it can help

anyway

Is this helping you find a solution to what you wanna do

Grady

Yea its definately helping. I've been thinking about buying the software for the PMS to datalog...but i also want the 04 spec upgrade.... $$$$$$

And if ya didnt notice my sig...im comin back home to the 302 guys...the windsor stuff is on its way out the door.

 

[final5-0]

Yea its definately helping. I've been thinking about buying the software for the PMS to datalog...but i also want the 04 spec upgrade.... $$$$$$

Glad the stuff helped

And if ya didnt notice my sig...im comin back home to the 302 guys...the windsor stuff is on its way out the door.

How come

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

It wasnt working out....too many headache. Headache after headache after headache. Its a long story but i just took it as a sign from a higher power I was losing money by the day. So, i pulled the plug, added up my loses and shut the project down.