fr manual rack installed...should it feel like this?

garystocker · Jul 4, 2007

Hello,
I need some help. I have installed a rack and column kit in my 1968 Mustang. After having the column too far into the engine compartment and using too much loc-tite that prevented me from seperating the parts without destroying the column and shaft, I wound up ordering a new column and shaft kit from you directly last week.

Now I have installed the new column almost flush with the firewall. Anymore in the cab and the set screws contact the floor mount during rotation. So The angle looked good. With the car off the ground I could see no contact (binding) in the shaft. I also sat in front of a wheel and was able to turn the wheel lock to lock without binding.

During test drives however, I feel obvious resistance every 1/4 - 1/2 turn of the wheel. It s hard to turn and the wheel does not return to center on it's own after cornering.

It feels fine on the road unless I am making a 90 degree turn. Then I am distracted with the effort needed to turn. And I can feel it get harder-easier-harder as I turn. I assume this is u joint binding? Or is it the rack?

What can I do now? At this point I have over $2000. into this steering system and I need to make it so I can turn corners quicker than i can turn the wheel now.

Help!

jcode68 · Jul 4, 2007

Definately sounds like it's binding somewhere, So you don't detect any binding while on jack stands? Does the geometry look good with the tie rod ends? What brand rack did you install and is it power or manual? Have you contacted their tech support? That's a lot of $, I hope you get it straightened out.

garystocker · Jul 4, 2007

No I detect no binding while on jack stands. Easy to move steering wheel, easy to move tire lock to lock, and as a helper turned I viewed the shaft u-joints and it looks OK

Under load I feel it during 90 degree turns. hard-easy-hard...It feels fine making 45 and less degree turns.

If it is in the ujoints in the shaft between the column and rack, how do I avoid it?

CanyonCarver515 · Jul 4, 2007

Did you keep your stock P/S pump? If so, your pump might not be delivering appropriate volume and/or pressure to the actuating cylinder. Randall at Randall's Racks recommend using his $300 pump with reed vavle to match the R&P unit he sells.

I thought he was just trying to sell up, so I bought the R&P unit from him (not mounted yet) and elected to keep using my existing P/S pump. Maybe I will run into the same problem as you.

Keep us posted...

garystocker · Jul 4, 2007

I should have mentioned it is a manual rack...

I am at a loss. I don't have headers in the way. There is plenty of room for the shaft and the u joint angle looks like less than 45 degrees.

What do I do now? I heard I can get an additional u joint of other similar mods usually reserved for header clearance...but they require a bearing mount stabilizer support.

I would like to know who has the Flaming River manual rack? How does it feel???

bnickel · Jul 4, 2007

i would suggest doing a search on here for the flaming river rack and ALL the problems people have had with them but i warn you now you WILL NOT like what you find.

12sec67 · Jul 5, 2007

10secgoal and I did a randalls rack and we had the same problemand it was binding at the joint. we put a dab of paint on the joint and turned it - the paint showed on the other end of the joint, shaved a hair off the joint and it was fine.

Rusty67 · Jul 5, 2007

Use some jack stands or 2 floor jacks to load the suspension of the car while its jacked up so you can check to see if the geometric changes in suspension travel are whats causing your problem.

red65 · Jul 5, 2007

I installed a Unisteer r&p, not FR, but the same physics should apply. Unisteer was very specific about orienting the u-joints, such that they're 45-deg out of phase. In other words, the top U-joint should be rotated 45-deg from the bottom one (I'm assuming a similar setup to the Unisteer with a u-joint attached to the steering column shaft, a short intermediate shaft, and a second u-joint driving the pinion gear).

If you've got them in-phase - that is, lined up with one another - you can feel the sort of resistance you're describing, even though they don't physically bind. Without getting into the reason too much, it's because Cardan joints (U-joints) don't transmit constant velocity - they turn faster then slower even if the input speed is constant. Positioning them out of phase cancels one joint with the other. Hope that makes sense.

garystocker · Jul 5, 2007

12sec67 said:
10secgoal and I did a randalls rack and we had the same problemand it was binding at the joint. we put a dab of paint on the joint and turned it - the paint showed on the other end of the joint, shaved a hair off the joint and it was fine.

I'll try that...

garystocker · Jul 5, 2007

red65 said:
I installed a Unisteer r&p, not FR, but the same physics should apply. Unisteer was very specific about orienting the u-joints, such that they're 45-deg out of phase. In other words, the top U-joint should be rotated 45-deg from the bottom one (I'm assuming a similar setup to the Unisteer with a u-joint attached to the steering column shaft, a short intermediate shaft, and a second u-joint driving the pinion gear).

If you've got them in-phase - that is, lined up with one another - you can feel the sort of resistance you're describing, even though they don't physically bind. Without getting into the reason too much, it's because Cardan joints (U-joints) don't transmit constant velocity - they turn faster then slower even if the input speed is constant. Positioning them out of phase cancels one joint with the other. Hope that makes sense.

Man, that makes complete sense. They are in phase right now on purpose Flaming River specifically said in the directions: "Phasing - Keep the forks of the yokes closest to each other in line and parallel to the shaft to avoid binding."

But I think that is woth a shot. That is what it feels like, just like you described.

garystocker · Jul 5, 2007

You know, the shaft is keyed: 2 smooth sides and 2 curved sides. That means I can only mount the u joint in one of two - 180 degree positions.

red65 · Jul 5, 2007

Here's a figure out of the Unisteer installation instructions that might be helpful (you can find the complete set at www.unisteer.com if you think it's worth looking at). The Unisteer shaft is keyed as well - two flats and two radiused sides - but the u-joints are set up such that they can be mis-phased.

ptl65 · Jul 7, 2007

I am looking for some help on a Unisteer system. It is a manual R&P installed on a 65 Fastback, no headers or other clearance issues. I am on my third weekend of trying to get the binding out. I have moved the column back to almost flush with the firewall, and even managed to get the rack to move forward a bit to try and reduce the angle, but the binding persists. The u-joints are mis-phased as shown in the directions. I realized after the 2nd weekend I was going to need a longer shaft, and have one coming. Meanwhile I have been able to do a temporary mockup with the old shaft, but I still think I am going to have problems with binding. I read the posts from several months ago on the Unisteer system and they helped some. Anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks!

red65 · Jul 8, 2007

ptl65 said:
I am looking for some help on a Unisteer system. Anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks!

Because of interference issues with my headers, I wound up using a third u-joint with a carrier. Having a third u-joint lessens the angle at each joint, by splitting the total angle between three joints instead of two - even with three, it's not far from binding. However, I see absolutely no downside to using the third joint, other than the added work of mocking up, cutting and installing a second shaft (you've spent plenty more energy than that already by the sounds of it). The shaft turns without binding, and does not transmit any obvious "phasing" motion to the steering wheel. You should think about putting together that setup rather than continuing the struggle with what you've got. Talk to Denny at Unisteer, and review the long Unisteer thread on this forum - part numbers are already listed there.

Snakestang did an excellent write-up in post #152 in this thread:

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=666586&page=7&highlight=unisteer

ptl65 · Jul 8, 2007

I read the previous thread on the Unisteer system. And I have been in contact with Denny, and he suggested the 3 u-joint setup. But after reading the posts from Tubo3, where he went back to the 2 after trying the 3, I am not so sure that is the way to go either.

6T6coupe · Jul 9, 2007

ptl65 said:
I am looking for some help on a Unisteer system. It is a manual R&P installed on a 65 Fastback, no headers or other clearance issues. I am on my third weekend of trying to get the binding out. I have moved the column back to almost flush with the firewall, and even managed to get the rack to move forward a bit to try and reduce the angle, but the binding persists. The u-joints are mis-phased as shown in the directions. I realized after the 2nd weekend I was going to need a longer shaft, and have one coming. Meanwhile I have been able to do a temporary mockup with the old shaft, but I still think I am going to have problems with binding. I read the posts from several months ago on the Unisteer system and they helped some. Anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks!

The Unisteer I installed had binding issues on the u-joints themselves. The u-joint yokes would make contact every 180 degrees. I had to use a grinder to relieve the ends to take the contact points out. Also check the steering shafts. If they protrude into the u-joint, they also will bind the joint. The shaft needs to be no more than flush with the inner joint.

ptl65 · Jul 9, 2007

The 180 degree binding sounds like what I have. It is very obvious. I was very careful to make sure none of the shaft ends were past flush, so it seems like it is the u-joints. How much did you have to take off the end of the joints? And did you have to do both? It seems like the problem is more with the lower than the upper.

dbfarr · Jul 9, 2007

CanyonCarver515 said:
Di

I thought he was just trying to sell up, so I bought the R&P unit from him (not mounted yet) and elected to keep using my existing P/S pump. Maybe I will run into the same problem as you.

I've got Randall's rack and the stock pump. Just makes the steering real easy as compared to the pump he sells. Of course, more pressure seems like more control.

That's what he told me two years ago when I bought mine, seems like his sentiment has panned out fairly true.

Maybe he is trying to upsell these days,... hmm.

garystocker · Jul 16, 2007

picture of shaft for working FR Rack, column and 3 u-joint steering shaft

Well the new shaft with the additioinal u-joint and bearing support have been added and the system is functioning normally...Finally!

Manual rack with the tilt column and 3 ujoint shaft with support bearing.

How do you guys like yours? I'd like some comparison feedback.

My car handles great. The turning corners is a chore though. Don't even try turning the wheel while not movingg!

fr manual rack installed...should it feel like this?

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