Gimme some hp - how?

[limey66]

OK, so I just got over spending three years and loads of cash rebuilding my basketcase '66 to find that when it's done and fired up for the first time (in a couple of months) it's not going to be able to out drag my three year old son on his trike:

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=530154

From a bog-stock 289 with a 2 bbl carb what do I do to release the potential of this car?

Most bang for the buck is what I'm after, but anything will do.

Cheers.

 

[06cobra]

Good Heads(good aluminum ones are good for 50+ horse over the factory stuff), exhaust, intake, carb, cam, a set of rear gears, stall converter.

If it were a perfect world, go with all the above, but start with Gears and exhaust and work you way up from there.

 

[limey66]

OK, so what size carb and what manifold do you guys suggest?

 

[Edbert]

The problem here is that we can suggest a high performance component of your choice, but if you bolt it on and don't change the rest it wont live up to its potential or even it's billing. This is particularly true with the fuel induction (cam/heads/manifold/carb).

If you want to bolt something on and feel it right away I'll suggest the gears or some long tube headers and free flowing exhaust be your first step. They wont turn you into a screamer right off but you WILL feel it with the seat-of-the-pants dyno. Get some gears in the 3.25 to 3.70 range if you don't have overdrive, if you do have OD then look at 3.70 to 4.11 ratios. For exhaust I would not go over 2.5 inches for a 289/302 but don't go under 2.25 or it will hold you back when you finish the engine up.

When you are ready to do the induction I strongly urge you to do it all at once with well matched parts. In my opinion Edelbrock has a great deal with their "package" approach. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of the equation, and it can be bolted on by a shadetree mechanic in a day (8-12 hours for someone with low experience who takes their time to get it exactly right), but I'd plan on an entire weekend to not get too tired or hurry yourself. You will have to pull the radiator and drain all the fluids which can add considerable time, plus you (I at least) always have to run down to the parts store for something I forgot. If you were to bolt on the entire "Performer RPM" package you could see a 100fwhp bump in your output. I would be very sure of the bottom end first though, and if you have dished pistons (doubtful but possible) you may need to change them.

But I have to ask, with $6 per gallon for petrol over the pond...are you sure you want this?

 

[jerry S]

But I have to ask, with $6 per gallon for petrol over the pond...are you sure you want this?

That's how much I pay. It seems there is an enormous inelasticity of demand when it comes to gas prices and driving mustangs. It seems like I go through a 1/4 tank of gas (I am guessing 4 gallons at $6 per gal) in 15 mins of highway driving.

Anyways, I concur with the Edelbrock packages. The pieces are all pretty well matched to each other.

 

[limey66]

...But I have to ask, with $6 per gallon for petrol over the pond...are you sure you want this?...

Thats why my daily driver is a DIESEL.

The Mustang is for fun at weekends, when it finally gets on the road.

I looked at the 'package' route which makes a lot of sense, but when I read articles on modified cars the spec sheet reads like a who's who of aftermarket bits - cam from Crane, some fancy aluminium heads, edelbrock intake, holley double pumper etc etc. I suppose mixing and matching is OK if you know what you're doing - I only kinda know...

Oh yeah, and it's nearer seven bucks a gallon now. (We have to buy in litres now so it's not so painful.)

 

[jerry S]

Thats why my daily driver is a DIESEL.

The Mustang is for fun at weekends, when it finally gets on the road.

I looked at the 'package' route which makes a lot of sense, but when I read articles on modified cars the spec sheet reads like a who's who of aftermarket bits - cam from Crane, some fancy aluminium heads, edelbrock intake, holley double pumper etc etc. I suppose mixing and matching is OK if you know what you're doing - I only kinda know...

Oh yeah, and it's nearer seven bucks a gallon now. (We have to buy in litres now so it's not so painful.)

Because you have a 289, my own uninformed opinion is that you will not see too much of an increase in performance by cobbling together exotic pieces instead of an Edelbrock Performer Package.

 

[69Rcode_Mach1]

If he were putting together an induction combo. I would recommend he go with a Weiand Xcelerator, it's what I would have put on my car if they made it for a 351 Windsor, with a holley or demon 650cfm carb. That should help wake up the engine. He could also put on a cam to help change up the powerband alittle bit to match the intake until he can afford cylinder heads. Gears are definantly a must, biggest bang for your buck. Exhaust as well, if done right can free up quite a few ponies for you. These mods will definantly put some pep in your step.

 

[limey66]

If he were putting together an induction combo. I would recommend he go with a Weiand Xcelerator, it's what I would have put on my car if they made it for a 351 Windsor, with a holley or demon 650cfm carb. That should help wake up the engine. He could also put on a cam to help change up the powerband alittle bit to match the intake until he can afford cylinder heads. Gears are definantly a must, biggest bang for your buck. Exhaust as well, if done right can free up quite a few ponies for you. These mods will definantly put some pep in your step.

The price of 'heads is scary, particularly on this side of the pond. Can my existing 'heads be re-worked or are they junk?

Gears won't give me more hp though...I'll either be to 60 in 3 seconds and maxed out at 65, or have a top speed of 200 and a 0-60 time recorded on a calendar - yes?

 

[69Rcode_Mach1]

Gears will not increase your hp, but they will help you hit your powerband faster. In essence it makes the car feel a lot faster than the numbers say. It's like the difference in power between 1st and 2nd gear, is how i explain it, not as extreme though. The heads can be worked a little but are still junk on the 289 and not worth money invested. You can get yourself a set of 351W D00E or C9AE heads and put those on there. They will help, but to really liven up the motor you can't beat aluminum heads. Talk to 65shlbyclone we helped him do all this and his car is fast, but now he wants gears. They will make a big difference. That induction combo will set you straight on the intake side. A cam couldn't hurt if you have the time. You can then save up for some good heads. If you plan on spinning the engine though, plan on getting some ARP rod bolts. Don't want to send your engine down onto hell with all that money invested. It takes time to gather up for heads, so in the meantime do those other suggestions and some exhaust to get your engine ready for those heads. Then when you got the money get yourself a nice set of AFR 165's. Those will run great and you won't need to update them if you decide you want to go a little more extreme.

 

[Edbert]

The cost difference of the heads would be the shipping right? I mean if they are actually charging more for the parts then maybe one of us on this side can order them and we can ship them to you. I doubt there are any export regulations or customs issues like there are for electronics and recorded media sometimes. The aluminum ones weigh considerably less than the cast iron ones, so shipping them should be considerably less. Edelbrocks for example are usually under $1200 for a complete and assembled set that includes guideplates/valves/springs/retainers, TFS heads are similarly priced. AFRs are a little more pricey but Canfields are somewhat less.

You can get big benefits by modifying stock heads, a porting job and some polishing, plus having them milled and machined for larger vavles will really wake them up. An old standby is the swap of some 351W heads, they have bigger valves, but unfortunately bigger chambers. If you can find some over there that might be a good option for you, but if you have to ship them the cost would be pretty high due to their weight. Swapping a set of 351 heads onto a 289/302 will require the block to be tapped for the larger bolts/studs. That means a takedown is in order unless you want to use the specialized swap-bolt-kits.

Regarding the gears you are basically right, other than some drastic exaggerations at least. They obviously do not increase power, but they do increase the quickness of your car, and rather drastically if you skip a few stages. Going from a 2.7 to a 3.25 or 3.5 without OD will not have you redline at 65, more like 95-110 (depending on your redline of course). But you'll get from one light to another MUCH quicker. Take for example my car with a standard OD gear in the AOD; I have 25.5 inch tires and a 3.89 rear gear, at 60mph each step up or down in gear means roughly 225RPM, pretty much nothing in my opinion. Most guys with late model Stangs swap in some 4.11s or higher for those street-light to street-light "events". I mean unless you are in Germany how often do you really drive in triple digit speeds?

 

[69Rcode_Mach1]

It's like the difference in power between 1st and 2nd gear, is how i explain it, not as extreme though.

Just pointing it out.

 

[jerry S]

The cost difference of the heads would be the shipping right? I mean if they are actually charging more for the parts then maybe one of us on this side can order them and we can ship them to you.

He can simply order the heads himself and send to a East Coast StangNetter who can then remail using air mail. He will have to pay duty in the UK equal to 10% of the purchase price + shipping. The problem is that the warranty is good back in the US. It won't travel with the heads so if he ever needed warranty work, he would have to ship them back. The cost advantage would evaporate right there. Another possibility would be to take a vacation and drive to CH. Prices are low compared to continential Europe and especially low compared to "Rip Off Britan," VAT is only 7%, and there are a lot of old Mustangs there along with shops specializing in 60's muscle cars. I am sure you can get what you need done there for less than the UK and have a fun road trip to boot. I am planning to drive my car to Italy to be stripped to the bare metal and reapainted and have custom Mach 1 leather seats made up.

 

[limey66]

Yeah, shipping, duty and VAT are just a pain in the wallet when importing big stuff.

I'm looking for improving the carb and intake first as I have a dual exhaust on it (but no headers yet). Any suggestions on a carb size - 600cfm?

Some good suggestions here guys, I think I'll take a copy of this thread just in case the server goes down. You never know, it could happen...

 

[Edbert]

I'm in Texas, so that hardly qualifies for east coast, but if you need a proxy or any help like that email me.

600 is a good size for a mild or small (4.7-5.0) displacement engine. 650 might leave you more room to grow, but steer clear of anything larger until that engine can breathe better.

 

[limey66]

I'm in Texas, so that hardly qualifies for east coast, but if you need a proxy or any help like that email me.

Well, Austin is kinda in the east of Texas...

Thanks for that, I've got relations in Denver, and friends in FL who could help me out, it's just the actual cost of shipping is as much as the parts sometimes. There is a company that I can ship to in the US, and they then ship loads over in weekly batches so that we all get the benefit for the bulk rate. Not tried it yet, but when I need (can afford) some heads I'll look at all the options.

I was in NYC this time last year, and had I known that I might be needing a set of heads I probably would have sorted it then. Nuts.

Good advice on the carb, thanks.

 

[69Rcode_Mach1]

I would go with 650 that will give you room to grow if need be and run just fine also. If you have a manual you could even go dp. I wish I would have done more research when I was first buying the carb a long time ago for the car. I had someone tell me to go 750 to grow, and someone say 600 is the best and 750 just wouldn't work. Now I have to save up another $400 to buy a demon carb. I wish I had gone 750 and tuned it right, you can make it work.

 

[jerry S]

but when I need (can afford) some heads I'll look at all the options.

I was in NYC this time last year, and had I known that I might be needing a set of heads I probably would have sorted it then. Nuts.
.

I have a pair of 351W heads off my 1969 Mach 1 (one of the better years for those heads). The guy who built my car has been lugging them to swap meets with no takers so far. They are assembled and, as Edbert has instructed us here, could be bolted to your engine without too much fuss although I would put in new valves (for modern gas) and new springs (if you are going to get a bigger cam) if I were put them on a car. They can be yours for $300 (that's just under UKP 160) for the pair plus shipping.

 

[Edbert]

It is easy to calculate the maximum cfm your car can take.

http://www.classictruckshop.com/garage/shopmathcfm1.asp

My 357 should use 620cfm at 100% volumetric efficiency, so I put a 750 on her

 

[BrownPSU78]

How much are you looking to spend here?
If you have the money get heads, cam, intake, headers, carb, stall, gears, and iginition. After you do all that if you are concerned about beating your 3 year old son's trike or some rice, I'd say grab a SMALL nitrous kit.
--Brown