H/C/I Assistance

[69PaleHorse]

I know this is a dead horse, but I find myself in the unfortunate position of needing to do a head gasket repair and possible head swap. So, naturally, I am bench racing every combo in my head, as I don't want to have to upgrade these components again at a later date.

Currently, my dilemma lies with what heads to pick up.

For the near to mid future I plan to keep the block as .40 over, stock stroke. However, there is a possibility I may stroke it to 331 at a later date. I try to keep this in mind when considering how parts will perform. Street manners are a concern. To me, this is defined as best possible power with best possible fuel efficiency and an idle that doesn't rattle me from the drivers seat. End goal is 400 hp at the crank.

I have narrowed it to AFR 165's, AFR 165 Comps or TFS heads. I've read numerous articles about the performance of the AFR products, but have also seen good numbers put up by TFS. My one concern with the TFS is that they will need longer pushrods and are sent as cast, rather than fully CNC ported like the AFR. Cost is also a minor consideration.

The Cam aspect is magic to me. I believe I will need to stay at or below .50 lift in order to avoid flycutting the pistons. I'll likely call Comp and/or Energy to get an idea of the best performing cam for my application.

As for intakes, I currently have an Edelbrock Performer - might change to an RPM. I think a dual plane intake will hurt my overall HP numbers on the high end, but idle - apx 4500 is probably the range I will use the most anyway. Any other thoughts on intakes? What are the pros/cons of the RPM vs. say the Weiand, or Holley?

If you've read this far, I applaud your tenacity. Thank you in advance for any comments/advice. And since I know this is an oft posted subject, I will don my flame-retardant suit now.

 

[rbohm]

first heads, since you are doing a cam swap, dont go with the afr 165's use the 185's instead.

intake, you can use the performer for now, but i recommend upgrading to the rpm or the weiand stealth. the stealth will have a slightly wider rpm range than the rpm though. and of course top the motor with a 600 cfm carb for a 289/302 or a 750 for a 331-408 street engine.

now for a cam. there are several good ones on the market today, and they all say they improve power. the tendency for most people is to select a cam based on the specs listed without regard to the rpm range the cam is designed to work in. and yes even i have made that mistake before. the very first thing to do is decide what rpm range the engine is goin to spend about 80% of its time in. in your case it is a street engine so you want a cam that works in the 1000-6000 rpm range roughly. a few cams i recommend;

the comp cams he268h cam- a good flat tappet hydraulic lifter cam that while showing its age, just flat works well.

the comp cams 270h magnum cam- a bit larger that the 268 cam, again hydraulic lifter flat tappet cam, and again a bit dated, but again it just flat works well.

then there is the small comp cam retrofit roller cam that i am going to use, .480 lift 260 advertised duration. again it just flat works well. you will need a retrofit roller kit, or a set of link bar lifter from crower or crane cams, and the right pushrods.

if you dont like comp cam, look up the specs on each of these cams and find a similar cam from a grinder that you like, as they are all pretty good these days. crane, crower, lunati, clay smith all grind excellent cams.

 

[67GTCOUPE]

I would throw out Canfield 195 heads as a good option.

Jay Allen at camshaftinnovations is the guy to talk to about them..........he can also make you a custom cam that will make a killer package.

I love my vic jr intake (Thanks to Jay Allen).......it ROCKS!

My heads were $1195 complete with Ferrea Race valves, and assembled with the springs I needed for my roller cam.

A custom cam is $310 to $400 and WORTH EVERY PENNY.

 

[70dvr]

As for the Edelbrock Performer. One thing I did to save money was port my Performer intake. I have World Windsor Sr. heads and had to remove a bunch of aluminum just to get the ports to match. I also worked on the inside of the intake to open up and straighten the runners as much as I could. It was the cheap way to go as I already had the tools from porting motorcycles. If you try this make sure to hook a vacuum to the intake. When I was done every bit of aluminum had gone in the vacuum and there was no mess.
I do understand what it's like to have a budget.

 

[Sicarius428]

165s are too small for a stroker. I also suggest 185 but you will have to flycut your pistons. If you absolutely cannot flycut your pistons, get the TFS heads. You really can't go wrong with either but the TFS heads give you the larger valve without having to cut the reliefs. Another nice thing about the TFS is you can port them later without having to ruin some beautiful CNC work.
Kevin

 

[D.Hearne]

165's are PERFECT for a 331. These are equal to the Canfield 1.94 valved heads. I have this very combo on my 331. Had this engine in my 89 Ranger for over a year. Backed by a Toploader 4 speed, and 3.73 geared 8.8 rear ( with the 275/60's this is equivalent to a Stang with 3.55's and 26" tires) This 331 has a 10.4 to 1 comp ratio, Ford Racing Z303 hyd roller, 1.7 rockers (for a lift of .587 at the valves) Heads are milled .060, block decked .010, .043 gaskets. No piston to valve problems (SRP forged flat tops) Intake is a high rise 3x2 with triple Holley 250's. Exhaust is Shelby tri-Y's for the early Stangs. I drove this to work on a 50 mile commute on twisty back roads. Mileage as long as you kept the right foot out of the 2 secondary carbs was 16 mpg. Power came on at 1500 rpms. Excellant street manners and easy to live with in daily driving. 1/4 mile for the 3800 lb Ranger was 13.7 @102.

 

[69PaleHorse]

Thanks all for the replies.

Based on my ideas for the end build, I do tend to agree that the AFR165 might be a bit small, though DH's experience seems to indicate otherwise. The comp version would be fine (intake ported to flow nearly the same as the 185's) but they are pretty expensive.

I spoke with the tech guys over at Trick Flow yesterday and compared some stats. I think I am leaning towards the TFS at this point because of the slightly larger intake port and the fact that it could easily be ported to 185cc volume if/when I stroke the motor. Also, Total Engine Airflow has CNC programs specifically for the TFS heads and their heads put up great numbers. Last, but not least, they are less expensive than the AFR. The hp/tq differences between the AFR and TFS seem to be pretty negligible ( <10) which should not translate to much in the seat-o-the-pants meter.

With the TFS I should be able to go to .54 lift without having to flycut the pistons. The larger cam, means more flow, which should mean more hp. So in that respect, I think the TFS should even out with the AFR as well. Is my thinking wrong here?

DH - Sweet Jebus, I think the six-pack is a little too exotic for my build, but sure sounds fun. I remember helping a broken down Mopar with a six-pack once, and it was not one of those moments I classify as enjoyable.

 

[SadbutTrue]

331 stroker...

Heads: TFS or AFR heads (i personally think both the 165s or 185s will work, but might as well get 185s if you're gonna fork the $ over for afrs... twisted wedge and even performer rpm heads can hit 400 without too much trouble). An old user here used performer rpms and twisted wedges: the trick flows went a few tenths faster but he said thee rpms were torquier and were more fun. I wouldnt spend the extra for AFRs, since used TWs are just over half as much (hell, someone is asking 900 for a set in the classifieds right now, i gotta think you could offer 800... and there you go. but then, i'm cheap). Hearne loves his Canfields, and those could work too (but Ford Muscles' flow bench did put them behind the AFRs and TWs)

Cam - Comcams 274xe or equivalent. The magnum (old school) cams are proven, but compcams (and crane cams and others) are really pimping their dual-pattern (in comp's case, the XE line) cams as being able to achieve the same top-end with more torque and drivability. I'd say go with those first. the 274 makes power to 6k, which should be enough for 400 hp withough over-stressing your rotating assembly etc.

Intake - Weiand stealth/Performer RPM (heard nothing but good things). Only engine i'd recommend a single plane (like a torker, vic jr, or similar) for at the street/strip level would be a 351c or similar engine where the gains are simply too big to ignore. At this level, you'd be trading gobs of torque on the low end for 10 horses at redline... noooot worth it.

Carb - Holley 670 street avenger or holley 750 DP

With a 331 that should net 400, streetably in your specified rpm range. With a 289/302, the same combo would work but you'd need more cam, probably reducing your streetability and pushing past the rpm limits. I dont think roller retrofit kits are necesarily worthwhile... they're nice but wont make a huge difference. But then if money's no issue go for it. This is essential;y the plan for my 351w when i get time/$.

Edits: No, youre not wrong for thinking the TW heads will run neck and neck with AFRs. They will. And the performer wont do it, reasonably anyway. Spend 80 bucks on a used RPM or Stealth.

 

[66forfun]

"Carb - Holley 670 street avenger" supports 400hp?

 

[SadbutTrue]

"Carb - Holley 670 street avenger" supports 400hp?

Borderline, but it is advertised for '300-400 hp' by Holley. You could go 770, I suppose. Either way.